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Hi, I still get hits on my website from the thread I started entitled " so I thought I would write a postscript. Before I started the thread I had energy, desire and the resources to push forward with my intended project of constructing and selling MIDIboxes. When I came into contact with the MIDIbox community, however, things changed. I found the members of the community to be aggressive, ignorant and childish. My energy and desire both took a hit. I was faced with a dilemma. Do I continue with my project and give some of myself to this negative group of people, or do I allow the energy I had to fully dissipate and devote my resources to other projects? Unsuprisingly, I chose to allow my energy to dissipate and went on to other things. Hence, I never built my own MIDIbox, let alone MIDIboxes to sell. I never hacked and contributed PCB designs, firmware or free EDA tools. I may, at some point in the future, return to the idea of hacking MIDI controllers. If I do, I will try my best to refrain from engaging with the MIDIbox community. Robert

Well, as I said, these are very preliminary thoughts. I'll cross that bridge when I get to it :-) Robert

No I didn't, which quite worried me, so I went and did some research. The Department of Trade and Industry (UK) website contains Product standards - Electrical Equipment (Low Voltage Directive) - Guidance notes on UK Regulation, which results from EU harmonisation directives. I'll reproduce some relevant, but somewhat dry, sections here for reference: (my emphasis) (my emphasis) So, from what I can tell, all that is necessary is to draw up a declaration, write some technical documentation, and ensure the EC mark is printed on the product. Of course, drawing up the declaration and writing the technical documentation requires knowledge of the relevant standards, that I would imagine would not be trivial. Regardless, the main issue is that (expensive) third party certification or assessment is not required. Robert

As a matter of fact, I do. I've written user guides for software before, so I've got a pretty good idea of what's involved. See my other post. Umm.. why would I be liable? I would be liable if someone got a shock from touching the enclosure or a button but I don't see how it would be my responsibility if someone took apart a box, fiddled around inside and got electrocuted. That's just pure stupidity on their part. Do I get to sue computer PSU manufacturers if I open one up and get a shock? No, of course not. It's a bloody PSU; it's got warning stickers on saying "don't be stupid enough to open this up and fiddle around inside". Believe it or not, I am capable of forethought and can easily foresee the need for warning stickers, just as you have. Also, I don't know about the industry legalities, but I would imagine that there would be some kind of license needed to sell commercial PSU units. That's just a manifestation of the fact that producing electronics to deal with mains electricity is a far cry from fiddling with PICs. It seems to me you're saying "don't sell MIDIboxes because you probably don't know anything about how to build a mains PSU." Well I'm certainly not going to go experimenting with mains electricity if I don't what I'm doing. Similarly, I'm not going to go selling PSUs if I don't have any necessary licenses or certification. And this is only loosely related to MIDIboxes anyway. To be frank, your argument is just silly. Robert

I'm not doing this "without any profit" but I'm not doing it for profit. I realise I'll have to clarify that. My motivation isn't to line my own pockets. If any serious money was raised then it would go on buying equipment for more MIDIbox projects; eg, oscilliscopes, bench power supplies, PCB etching equipment, maybe even milling equipment for enclosures. My motivation isn't to buy more ice creams, or a Mercedes Benz. My motivation is to do COOL STUFF :) That's the difference between business and capitalism. Then I pity you. Robert

Certainly, I can see the point. Any company that offloads support onto the MIDIbox forums would obviously be a issue. However, you would have a very serious and legitimate grievance with that company, which would open them up to litigation; something most commercial interests will avoid like the plague. The issue really is that any hypothetical MIDIbox production company would be selling a specific product and they would have to be very careful to distinguish between that product and the offerings of the MIDIbox community. Any confusion between the two, intentional or otherwise, would spell disaster, and not just due to litigation. I can just imagine the ensuing chaos if a customer managed to catch SmashTV on a bad day ;) So yes, I see the point. But I think any serious business would have to keep its customers and the MIDIbox community away from each other, at all costs. Hence, I don't think there would be any risk to the forums if you were to consent to such a business. With regard to eBay sellers, if you give permission to sell then you can stipulate that they must provide their own support and can't refer to the MIDIbox community in any way. If they respect your wishes then the forums stay clean. If they don't respect your wishes then the issue of permission won't matter anyway. Robert

The very preliminary thoughts in my mind are concerned with the number of inputs and outputs; they're rather limited for the kind of boxes I have in mind. From what I can tell (and please correct me if I'm wrong,) upping the number of analogue inputs to 128 or 196 would require a redesign of the core, a new AIN module and changes to MIOS. I realise that one can chain multiple cores, but I believe a modification to support more inputs would be very useful in itself. Even sticking with a basic core for 64 inputs, I would probably want to combine the two AIN modules onto a single board. For that matter, combining a lowest common denominator of modules onto a single board would be a worthwhile goal if I was intending to produce many similar designs; eg, 1xCore, 2xAIN, 1xDIN, 1xDOUT. As noted, a user-focused manual for MIOS and/or specific box designs would be a must if a box was to be sold as a product. I also intend on only using free software for design work. The state of free EDA tools is somewhat lacking at present, compared to proprietary alternatives. I fully expect to find myself hacking software where necessary. I hope that clarifies things for you. Robert

Setting up a business and contributing to the community are not mutually exclusive. Robert

Yes. That's my goal. Perhaps I wasn't clear enough on that.. Robert

EDIT: LINK REMOVED

Indeed; I appologise. I misread your comment. What threw me is that I can't actually find any mention of sexuality anywhere in this discussion (and I still can't so I have to wonder, what comments are you talking about?) I'm not interested in any "ally"; like you said, this is a discussion not a bloody war. I'm not interested in sides or winning or losing, I'm interested in clarifying whatever misunderstanding has caused the very obvious friction, regardless of whose misunderstanding it is. Unfortunately, that seems to be an impossible task as other people do seem to be concentrating on winning something. I would just point out that I could ignore your comments, like I have others'. As noted, it seems other people are doing it. Both yourself and Mike (whoever he may be) are selling PCBs. I haven't had an answer yet as to how my intent is ethically different from yours. To me, it seems that there is no ethical difference. I suspect you may see a difference that doesn't exist because you've made assumptions about my motivation. Robert

:o If I'd known I was talking to a homophobe, I wouldn't have bothered with you.

I'm not interested in starting a business, but I am interested in building MIDIboxes. The only the reason I mentioned a limited company is that it might be a convenient framework to present the boxes to the public. It would also provide financial benefits in the form of tax breaks if the sales reached a decent volume. That means cheaper components, PCB etching, etc. Robert

Concepts are only covered by patents. Unless Thorsten has an patent on the MBHP, which I find very unlikely, the concept is open to exploitation, legally, regardless of how much you might hate that fact. You keep saying "it" and "this" and make other ambiguous references to something which has IP rights attached to it but you still haven't said what that something is. I was expecting you to point out what this something is; to swing the hammer of logic. You haven't done that. It's like you believe Thorsten has a claim against anyone making a DIY MIDI controller. A concept or an idea isn't covered by IP law unless a patent is involved. Copyrights apply to a work of some sort; be it some words, or some music, or whatever. I don't believe I have to copy any such works in order to build a MIDIbox, except to download the web page to my browser and I understand the judicial position so far is that viewing web pages on the public internet is not considered copyright infringement. If I copied files from www.ucapps.de and tried to sell those, then there would be a copyright issue. Building a MIDIbox using the ideas on somebody's public web pages doesn't, as far as I can tell, infringe on any copyrights. Trademarks would only be applicable if I were to use them in decoration or sales literature, or trade on their value in some other way. The only IP left is a registered design which only applies to the outside of a product, and even then they have to be explicitly registered. I certainly don't intend on copying anybody's enclosure or surface designs, regardless of whether they've registered them, which I doubt anybody has anyway. So what, exactly, is this "something" that has IP rights involved, that you are so adament exists? If I expected to have to face any legal challenges I would. It seems to me you don't have a leg to stand on. Regardless, I haven't even bought any components for my own MIDIbox yet, so that would seem a little premature. We resolved, or at least I suggested and wasn't rebuffed, that the issue should be shelved until such time as the benefits are clear. My intention hasn't changed since I posted it. I can't imagine why you would think it had changed. As noted in my original post, I don't expect to make any profit. That doesn't mean no profit will be made, but it does mean that I'm not doing it for profit. That seems, to me, to be pretty much exactly what you do with the PCBs. Indeed it isn't. It was was the job of my university lecturer, and I think he did pretty well. Courts really, really don't like it when people do that. And you just stated your intent to do so. Let me make a suggestion: be quiet. Robert

Whose design for what? You haven't said what, exactly, contains IP within the MIDIbox project, except the MIOS and trademark "MBHP" and neither of these stop me, or anybody else, selling MIDIboxes. What work exactly? Then why did you say anything in the first place? Thorsten and I have already resolved the issue. I'm just waiting for you to swing this hammer of logic, as promised. To be frank, you just seem to be talking rubbish. Legally, there would seem to be nothing whatsoever to stop me from selling MIDIboxes. Wanting there to be legal way to stop selling of MIDIboxes doesn't mean there is a legal way to prevent selling of MIDIboxes. Robert