MB-6582 front panel - I'm about to start. Feedback ... ?

[nebula]

Wilba / anyone with experience with this:

I'm about to start putting together my front panel.  I'm going to order the hardware from Digi-Key tomorrow, so I should have it all by Tuesday.

I saw a page where Wilba said he has never had problems getting JB-Weld to adhere to any front panel, but on the "control surface construction guide" Wiki page I read the following:

WARNING!! JB-Weld does not stick well to the panels from the first bulk order! This may be solved by sanding (roughening) the places where the JB-Weld should go. Please wait until someone has tried this method before gluing to the panel. Watch this space!

This appears out of sync with other statements made.  So ... if I may share my plan:

I have one of the panels from Altitude's bulk order. I plan to use a Dremel with a stainless steel brush on the back of the panel. I plan to brush for a few moments until the black is gone, then apply JB-Weld and attach the hardware.

For the spacers I have a choice between aluminum and brass - any suggestions?

BTW if, like me, anyone has trouble finding JB Weld, you need to look no further than eBay.  I got mine there pretty cheaply.

[Wild_Weasel]

I did scuff of the black coating with an dremel cut off disc.

Afterwards I did clean it with some kind of breakdisc cleaner [automotive stuff]; not sure how it is called in english.

But I didn't use the JB weld stuff since I think it is not available in Austria but some kind of Loctite metall 2 component epoxy.

Be sure to scuff your stand offs as well. This will ensure a clean surface for the glue to stick on.

regards

Michael

[julienvoirin]

whatever happen you can send the panel for jb welding. it is innerside, so hidden from outside.

JB weld is cool for spacers but not for screws in the corners (to much pressure if you turn it too much, so be cool). Look at flicker/wilba

[cimo]

..in my actual project i have a metal front panel and a plastic subpanel attached to the back of the front panel.

Mounting screws are flat head, placed on the plastic panel in countersunk holes and fixed with a spacer.

Now i know there isn t place for an extra panel in the 6582 but you could try to use 4 small pieces of acrylic, make a hole with countersink and then glue the whole thing to the back of the front panel, this will give extra strenght.

Some measurememts:

the panel is 1.5 mm

the difference between the level where the panel sits and the

4 smal piece of plastic with the holes for panel mounting is 1 mm

the difference between the level where the panel sits and the edge

of the panel frame (where the plastic is mat/rough) is 2mm

assuming you can find any 2mm thick material you could use it as i ve described and it would eventually look better cause the panel would sit at the same level as the fram einstead of .5 mm lower as it would normally

as an extra you can use a smal drill bit to make small blind holes in the back of the panel and on the plastic panel as well, i used this technique on plastic over plastic and it improved greatly the resistance

(hope it is clear enough)

simone

EDIT: i cam to think that maybe one of the reasons why the 4 screws are a weak point is because there is a little gap (1mm) between the back of the front panel and the surface of the small 4 plastic corners with holes for panel mounting on the case frame.There will always be a little tension because of the screws being pulled by the nuts.

EDIT2: useless (or not?) to say that a small piece of acrylic 15x15mm will be as strongly glued as 10 screws all together

[Wilba]

Yes wiki is out of sync... some people reported problems with the corner screws not sticking before I tried it with success. I suspect they didn't use as much JB-Weld as I did, or different screws, or had NFI (joke!)

I had two of the panels from the bulk order to which I glued the screws and spacers (they went to the needy). I used Philips head countersunk screws, and the JB-Weld completely covered the screw head and onto the panel to ~10mm diameter. You can sort of see an example here on a red panel:

The red anodized aluminium panel was an experiment in making an Access Virus colour scheme, it also went to the needy and I'm eagerly expecting some more FPE panels in white art on black anodized aluminium.

FYI the spacers I used were chrome-plated, and similarly used large blobs so that the main bond is on the outside of the spacer, bonding at least 3mm around the spacer with 3mm up the spacer. Flickr photos show extreme overkill in blob size, you could instead do it in two stages, one with small blobs just to get them attached to the panel, and then a second stage of adding more exactly where you want it... that's what I'm trying in future, so I'm not using so much JB-Weld!

In addition, I know from experience that JB-Weld doesn't stick well at all to raw aluminium like you find in the hardware store or something... it's something about the anodized surface that makes it stick, roughening it might actually make it worse, as it's then trying to stick to the raw aluminium which (I hear) oxidises instantly as soon as it's exposed.

As long as you keep in mind that the bond is not coming from the space between the panel and screw/spacer but from around it, you should be fine  ;D

[nebula]

maybe one of the reasons why the 4 screws are a weak point is because there is a little gap (1mm) between the back of the front panel and the surface of the small 4 plastic corners with holes for panel mounting on the case frame.There will always be a little tension because of the screws being pulled by the nuts.

Interesting ... it seems to me that this area is probably one where aspiring MB-6582 builders should take great care.  Sticking those screws to the panel using the circuit board as a guide appears, by my eye, to leave a bit more room for error than it would if we instead used the aluminum panel sheet that shipped with the PT-10, in which the holes are slightly smaller, and more guaranteed to line up with the guides on the enclosure.

Still, I will use the circuit board as a guide, and when I lay my panel into the enclosure for the first time I will absolutely be careful that no JB-welded screw comes into contact with any plastic.  If it does, then I need to pull off the panel and enlarge the plastic guide hole a little bit, so that there is no permanent tension on the screw.

Then the first nuts go on.  Here is where we also can really take our time, because once on, that panel will never need to come off again!  So stick a lockwasher ("spring washer") and a nut on there, and tighten just enough that the panel doesn't rattle, and you have flattened the lockwasher a little.  Any more is overkill.  Also, while doing this tightening, consider holding the screw shaft with a pair of needle-nosed pliers and a piece of cloth / paper towel / electrical tape, so that none of the rotational torque is transfered to the screw shaft while you tighten it.

Of course I haven't actually done it yet so I could just be speaking out my ass.

I'll try to provide pictures of my progress here.

[Wilba]

Don't use the PT-10 panel! The whole point of using the PCB is so the switches align with the panel holes.

You don't need to worry too much about lining up the screws with the enclosure, the holes in the PCB align with the enclosure and any slight difference is fixable with a craft knife (the case is plastic!). I had to enlarge the mount holes on the case anyway because I used a bit too much JB-Weld last time so the "cone" of JB-Weld would fit inside the mount hole. Having this cone touch the mount holes is not a problem because then there's no tension on the panel, it can't move any further into the mount hole!

You can see from the photos that with some switches snapped-in and the PCB and panel clamped together so the switches are aligned to the panel holes, you can take your time positioning the screws so they are centred in the PCB mount holes and can apply the JB-Weld liberally around the screw heads.

[nebula]

Thx Wilba,

You're absolutely right, I would not try to use the PT-10 aluminum panel as my sole guide, although it could improve accuracy a bit if used behind the board.  Unfortunately that's impractical too if you have a couple of tact switches / encoders in place on the board, because their leads will stick out the back of the board and cause the PT-10 panel to not sit flat.  As I suggested and you reiterated, it would be far easier just to rework the PT-10 plastic housing's hole.

So I will order my spacers at the end of the day, while I wait for my little science experiment to finish.  Here's what I've done:

I have a small scrap piece of unfinished aluminum, and two spare of each of the following:

- small zinc pan-head screw

- small brass standoff

- small aluminum standoff

So I have used a wire wheel to brush off any oxidization on a spot on the aluminum, I have mixed some JB-Weld  and applied it to an unbrushed area and the brushed area on the aluminum.  I set one of each metal fastener into the JB-Weld.  While my conditions are not perfect, it will be interesting to see what holds and what doesn't.

[Wilba]

I did a similar experiment with a spacer and a piece of raw aluminium, it didn't stick too well at all, but I didn't give up and tried gluing to the panel anyway and it worked. You might say why did I bother with the experiment...  ::)

[nebula]

Well it also gave me a chance to practice with the stuff before I slap it on my panel.  I see now that it stiffens up quite a bit about 30 seconds after you mix it.  Enough that a cable tie is not rigid enough to be an effective applicator (I think a small knife would be the best tool to apply it).

...and I didn't order my hardware yet.  I had a music project suddenly sprung on me.  Grrrrr ...

[Wilba]

For what it's worth, I use wooden skewers to apply, and mix with a plastic spatula thing that came with some two-part epoxy.

[nebula]

The results are in!

First, I didn't give the JB-weld a full 24 hours to cure (maybe about 22 hours, and it was thick, so I think it could have done with a bit longer).  Second, somebody managed to upset the experiment and caused a couple of my standoffs to fall on their side, and end up not as well-immersed in the JB Weld as they should have been.  Finally, I didn't use any clamps.

The JB Weld stuck ridiculously well in all circumstances.  I would have to say that it sticks better to the brass spacers than the aluminum spacers.  It took serious leverage to get any of the joints to break.

If the JB-welded joints stick to the panel as well as they did to my scrap aluminum (both in the cleaned spot and the dirty spot), I have no concerns about using JB-Weld to hold the front panel and its PCB in place.

[Smithy]

JB Weld is apparently stronger than most think.

"This is what happens when you try to JB Weld a front control arm bushing on a BMW. We now know that JB Weld is stronger than aluminum."..........

http://ie.youtube.com/watch?v=HpKOGaFqAuQ

[sineSurfer]

thanks for the JB weld test report nebula! so, 24 hours is a must... will remember that ;)

at the end of that video:

"Don't be cheap and JB weld your bushings. Buy a new ones"  :P

btw. smithy, what's up with including a youtube video on all your posts? not good for the slacking time vs building time ratio! ;D ;D

[Smithy]

btw. smithy, what's up with including a youtube video on all your posts? not good for the slacking time vs building time ratio! ;D ;D

I know man, and i apologise if im pissing off other members on here!

I have absolutely no concentration or follow through, and i have yet to figure out the optimised c64 circuit!

I seriously need to start building and make more constructive posts!  :-\

[nebula]

Status update:

I have finished the first phase of the control surface: JB-welding the 4 corner screws to the panel.  Unfortunately I couldn't get actual pan-head screws so instead I used M3 hex bolts in stainless steel.

As for the spacers, I wanted them in brass, but Digi-Key was out of stock. I ended up buying aluminum.

I forgot to clean the back of the panel before I attached the four corner screws with JB-Weld.  The package recommends using a solvent, such as acetone, but I got so excited I totally gapped on it.

I used flat toothpicks to mix and apply the JB-Weld.  They worked very well.

At this point, I have two pieces of advice:

(1) ensure you have at least four decent clamps that are IDENTICAL.  I tried this about 10 different ways ealier today, at work, where I was only able to scrounge up 4 clamps all of different sizes and principles.  I took it home where I had four nice "Fuller" clamps that cost me all of a buck each, which worked great.

(2) borrow an extra set of hands from a competent individual.  My roommate, Adam, was a godsend.  This operation is definitely possible with just one person, but far easier with two. 

Use a little wrench or needlenose pliers to tighten the corner screws against the panel by adjusting the nut between the panel and the PCB.  Hold the screw with your fingers or needlenose pliers so it doesn't turn while it's trying to bond with the wet adhesive.  Once you've snugged it up (it doesn't have to be really tight), finger-tighten the other washer (on your side of the PCB) which will prevent any movement.

I truly believe that the 4 corner screws will prove to be much more difficult than the spacers. I also think that once the spacers are attached, I will probably endure one more 24-hour curing period beyond the "control surface construction guide", in which I bulk up on  JB-Weld wherever it appears to be lacking.

[Wilba]

Interesting...

Neb, I'm not trying to be critical, just pointing some things out.

The aim of using countersunk heads was so it's as narrow as possible where it fits into the PT-10 mount holes, as well as allowing JB-Weld to go over the screw head and onto the panel.

I forgot to clean the back of the panel before I attached the four corner screws with JB-Weld.  The package recommends using a solvent, such as acetone, but I got so excited I totally gapped on it.

I used spit and a dirty rag. I recommend spitting on the panel and not licking the rag. (That's a joke for the humour impaired).

(1) ensure you have at least four decent clamps that are IDENTICAL.  I tried this about 10 different ways ealier today, at work, where I was only able to scrounge up 4 clamps all of different sizes and principles.  I took it home where I had four nice "Fuller" clamps that cost me all of a buck each, which worked great.

I have no idea how non-identical clamps don't work. Don't all clamps basically clamp?

Mine aren't all identical, they're G-clamps of different sizes.

(2) borrow an extra set of hands from a competent individual.  My roommate, Adam, was a godsend.  This operation is definitely possible with just one person, but far easier with two. 

I also have no idea what the extra set of hands are for...  ;D Please elaborate!

Use a little wrench or needlenose pliers to tighten the corner screws against the panel by adjusting the nut between the panel and the PCB.  Hold the screw with your fingers or needlenose pliers so it doesn't turn while it's trying to bond with the wet adhesive.  Once you've snugged it up (it doesn't have to be really tight), finger-tighten the other washer (on your side of the PCB) which will prevent any movement.

Once you get to this point:

you can add JB-Weld to the bottom of the screw head, then pull the screw UP from the PCB side, using friction between the nut and the PCB to hold the nut while you turn the screw, this will then lower the screw head onto the panel. Once you've made contact with the panel, you can then centre it in the PCB hole.

I truly believe that the 4 corner screws will prove to be much more difficult than the spacers. I also think that once the spacers are attached, I will probably endure one more 24-hour curing period beyond the "control surface construction guide", in which I bulk up on  JB-Weld wherever it appears to be lacking.

The only thing that can "stuff up" the gluing spacers stage is getting the switch shafts into the holes, if one or more switches have moved (i.e. aren't still fully "snapped-in") this can leave you in a sticky situation, with the spacers already touching the glue blobs. So, before doing the gluing spacer state, check each switch you're using as a guide is firmly snapped in.

[nebula]

Neb, I'm not trying to be critical, just pointing some things out.

I think you and I need to stop saying this to each other.  I respect your opinion and I think we know each other's intentions :)

The aim of using countersunk heads was so it's as narrow as possible where it fits into the PT-10 mount holes, as well as allowing JB-Weld to go over the screw head and onto the panel.

Yeah, I totally got that ... but given how small the heads are on these little bolts, I don't think it's going to make a difference.  I'll send pics

I used spit and a dirty rag. I recommend spitting on the panel and not licking the rag.

Interesting ... do you start with a mouth full of acetone?

(1) ensure you have at least four decent clamps that are IDENTICAL.  I tried this about 10 different ways ealier today, at work, where I was only able to scrounge up 4 clamps all of different sizes and principles.  I took it home where I had four nice "Fuller" clamps that cost me all of a buck each, which worked great.

I have no idea how non-identical clamps don't work. Don't all clamps basically clamp?

Mine aren't all identical, they're G-clamps of different sizes.

Yeah, my first attempt was far more ghetto ... I had two C-clamps (funny how you call them G-clamps, go figger).  One was about 1 inch, the other about 6 inches.  I then started canvassing people in other areas of my work, and ended up with a clip from a set of jumper cables, a pair of Vise-grips, and an adapted pair of vise-grips that a welder would use.

I couldn't rest the panel flat, and it was tricky even to loosen to adjust the alignment.  Identical clamps?  OK , maybe not absolutely essential ... but at least use good clamps.

I also have no idea what the extra set of hands are for...  ;D Please elaborate!

Here, put on these clamps while I hold these together.  Just stuff like that.

Once you've made contact with the panel, you can then centre it in the PCB hole.

I probably shoulda done this, but ... :D

The only thing that can "stuff up" the gluing spacers stage is getting the switch shafts into the holes, if one or more switches have moved (i.e. aren't still fully "snapped-in") this can leave you in a sticky situation, with the spacers already touching the glue blobs. So, before doing the gluing spacer state, check each switch you're using as a guide is firmly snapped in.

Yep ... I already came up against that once.  The sideways play on my tact switches (I'm using "e-switch" switches) kinda threw me because it just ended up looking taller than the other buttons.

Once the switches are snapped down, though, they provide a valuable visual cue if you look into the space between the panel and the control surface PCB.  If they are not straight, i.e. rubbing on the panel, they will be visibly not parallel with the spacers.

I can't wait to get home and move on to phase 2!  In the meantime, I have got all the resistors on my base board.  Serial # 52: you're about to be born!  (btw how many are completed so far?)

[stryd_one]

The acetone spit is a byproduct of the SID factory in his belly.

[Wilba]

I think you and I need to stop saying this to each other.  I respect your opinion and I think we know each other's intentions :)

Fair enough. I know the construction guide is a bit brief and lacking a lot of photos... I'm taking photos as I build this current one.

BTW I've always called them G-clamps and wikipedia verifies that I'm not a complete tosser who has got it wrong for twenty years. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/C-clamp IMHO they look more like a G.

The acetone spit is a byproduct of the SID factory in his belly.

Almost entirely not true. My sweat can remove tarnish from copper. Maybe everyone's can, I dunno, mine's really good at it though.

[stryd_one]

Almost entirely not true. My sweat can remove tarnish from copper. Maybe everyone's can, I dunno, mine's really good at it though.

LOL I'm not surprised...

BTW I always called them G Clamps too, and so does everyone I know.

"C-clamp

From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

  (Redirected from G-clamp)"

And yet the article says G-Clamp all through it... I wonder if C-Clamp is the american name?

[nILS]

BTW, to everyone in Germany/Europe having problems sourcing JB-Weld: This http://www.pollin.de/shop/detail.php?pg=NQ==&a=ODM4OTAxOTk= is the sh*t. I got a pack yesterday and used it on a panel already. It's a 2-compound epoxy resin with aluminum dust in it. It's like play dough. While you knead it, it doesn't get hard, once you let it sit, it's hard within 10 minutes. Another hour later you can saw/file/drill it. Really nice to work with.

[nebula]

I can attest that that stuff is incredibly strong.  I used something very similar to fix a broken headlight assembly a few years ago and it held up beautifully.

Did you actually use it to attach screws / standoffs to a panel in the same way as for MB-6582?

[nILS]

Did you actually use it to attach screws / standoffs to a panel in the same way as for MB-6582?

Yes I did. On a painted aluminum panel to be precise, I have done so on a prior box with a wooden panel and it worked really well for that, too.

[nebula]

Removing the detents from the Soundwell encoders is pretty easy, but in the process I also found it easy to stab my hand with a tiny screwdriver about 6 times.

It takes maybe a little less than five minutes per encoder.  The detent can easily be flattened with needlenose pliers. Make make sure you flatten the entire raised part or else you'll still feel a little resistance.