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x0xb0x panels


Sasha
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Ok, well. let's look on the panel from typographic point of view.

let's exclude panel graphical design, as this is a matter of taste.

x0xmockupny8.th.jpg

As i'm part of this set, i want to advice about typefaces and readability.

First of all, the typeface used, that roland instuments font, designed to be a 'headline' typeface - and not to be used in extensive reading. Headline typeface term mean to be used here as a catchy name which appears once-twice and works as a contrast to other typefaces on whole plate. Think of 'ground' and 'live' lines across any electronic circuit. this particular typeface is 'live', and even high voltage, it should be used with great care.

i concur that this typeface choice makes a whole hype of 'environment' feeling, mostly because of our common previous experience with other roland gear which proudly bear it's shapes.

Because of this typeface choice, this instrument screams and cries to be roland, like a teen spending her parent's cash for a overpriced fancy shirt, just to look like her pop-idol, which she will never become. 

Do we want to be roland? My guess, not. Otherwise, go ebay - there's original 303's on sale.

Money? Fuck money. Be Roland.

for x0x, Better strategy is to build separate brand, even if it's based on same circuitry.

::)

wilba is correct about rear sockets labeling - i can't see no reason for this type of information on FP, once you plug the gear up you will never need that information again. I'm a slave to design and will invest my every last agura [israeli variation for 1/100 fraction of currency] in my pocket to make it as much pleasant as we can :)

Run/stop label is problematic - why breaking the line after slash? either leave slash out or make whole label name on same line. kayboard i guess is keybaord.

Mode label is insufficient and while all others appear centered to knob axis, this one stands out. either need support from other label(s) mis-centering, or otherwise eliminating it. once knobs attached, this mis-aligning would become more visible.

Wave shapes. they can have a better presence - like line width, or inverting it within a square box or something. now it looks orphan (parentless?), too bare.

Sequencer numbers can be much more smaller - while some of them can stand out - be bolder, bigger, inverted or both  ;) You decide. The limit is only the technique used - screen/engraving minimum x-height.

a good consideration could be typographic hierarchies - you're using them, but with current typeface it's less apparent. 

overall, nice design!  ;) 

//EDIT: NO, i don't mean to throw more work on you Sasha!  ;)

If you can share the file (plus font file of course - free fonts foundries - no copyright issues),

i'll gladly do it myself for everybody's well being readability  ;D.

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kayboard i guess is keybaord.

Kartoshka has invoked the spelling corrector gremlin: kayboard i guess is keybaord, and I guess is Keyboard. (something like rule 96 - every bug you fix introduces at least one more).

I, for one, like the rear labels where they are. I don't like having to dig around the back on something to find a connector, and since I move stuff around a lot, I think it would be useful.

I've not looked at the Greyhill switch properly, in terms of spindle/knob matching, I think it might look better to have the mode switch labels as two symmetrical columns of 8, one each side, but as I said, I think this might give rise to a pointer alignment problem, (I'm certain Sasha has already looked at this). If it were possible, then the word 'Mode' could then be centred under the switch. Personally, I think the 'mode' label is redundant - the switch markings are self explanatory.

Just a few thoughts anyway.

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What concerns me about the x0xb0x design is there's nothing holding that I/O PCB to the case other than the audio sockets attached to the rear panel. Less than ideal, but not that bad... the rear panel is held tight in the slot on all four sides and the height is ~45mm so it can't bend much.

That is maybe only thing that don`t concerns me. 1mm steel back panel is very strong especially if it is hold on all 4 sides. One thing that we need to do is make some improvisation with the 0.5mm difference in thickness as you said back panel should be 1.5mm thick.

The engraving plastic that Sasha suggested is a good idea, and it might also be possible to add a little support in the middle, maybe some spacers glued to the back of the panel, and hold the PCB to the spacer with a screw. In this case it might be the PCB supporting the panel more than the other way around.

Good to hear that. I have left some of the material so I might cut it and see how will it fits. kokiPsiho has PT10 case so he might do me a favor and let me try this panel. Doing the panel out of some of these material would make everything much easier and speed things up very much. The material is Rowmark brand and it comes in very good pallet.

Also, I'm not trying to be critical of Sasha's x0xb0x panel design

But criticizing design in this stage should be always welcome! It can open your eyes.

but I don't understand why the labels for the rear sockets are at the top of the front panel on the original x0xb0x... this seems to be some copied design from the TB-303 or maybe just removing the need to silkscreen the rear panels.

Alot of gear have those lables on that place. I would personally really like to avoid it but it will increase the cost of panels. That is the only reason. If we be using some engravable plastics we can do it at the back panel.

Since I'm not joining this bulk order, my opinion doesn't matter ;D I just wanted to point out that you have an opportunity to make panels better than the originals, so maybe it's worth considering.

Everybody opinion matters if there are arguments. That is why I put thread so we can all discuss about design. Thank you for criticism.

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First of all, the typeface used, that roland instuments font, designed to be a 'headline' typeface - and not to be used in extensive reading. Headline typeface term mean to be used here as a catchy name which appears once-twice and works as a contrast to other typefaces on whole plate. Think of 'ground' and 'live' lines across any electronic circuit. this particular typeface is 'live', and even high voltage, it should be used with great care.

I agree about Roland reasons for designing this font, but I find same font pretty readable but same time bit more interesting than something like Arial

Because of this typeface choice, this instrument screams and cries to be roland, like a teen spending her parent's cash for a overpriced fancy shirt, just to look like her pop-idol, which she will never become.

I see some x0xb0xes  that have top panel designed to look as much as possible as TB303 but I really wanted to do something different. My reason for using this font was only because I find it looking great. I used same font on my controller that don`t have anything in common with Roland.

What font are you suggest? And what font is used on original x0xb0x. It looks good too. I must admit I didn`t spend very much time on the font selection.

Do we want to be roland? My guess, not. Otherwise, go ebay - there's original 303's on sale.

Money? Fuck money. Be Roland.

Not sure is it just you that have that feeling about trying to look like Rolland or other people share that opinion.

I very much don`t want this box looks like Roland at all!

for x0x, Better strategy is to build separate brand, even if it's based on same circuitry.

::)

You can`t be original. This is a clone of a clone and not brand. So, lets try make it look good and not think too much of it`s originality.

wilba is correct about rear sockets labeling - i can't see no reason for this type of information on FP, once you plug the gear up you will never need that information again.

I explained the reason but beside that i find it practical even I like clear panel. I was thinking of making the labels upside down for my controller. The reason is that you almost never see the lables right as you never actually plug it from behind. You always lift it, or band the head or something. Just lok at the guys when connecting the plugs into their gear... So, I would personally make labels at back panel always upside down.

I'm a slave to design and will invest my every last agura [israeli variation for 1/100 fraction of currency] in my pocket to make it as much pleasant as we can :)

Me too, but I don`t usually have enough money to make my dreams and compromises are always necessary. I can send you the raw panel so you can do it your way if you want.

Run/stop label is problematic - why breaking the line after slash? either leave slash out or make whole label name on same line.

because it is double function and staying in line would make it look bad.

kayboard i guess is keybaord.

no, kayboard is keyboard!  ;)

Mode label is insufficient and while all others appear centered to knob axis, this one stands out.

Agree. I really don`t know how to do it right.Maybe it is better to left it out.

Wave shapes. they can have a better presence - like line width, or inverting it within a square box or something. now it looks orphan (parentless?), too bare.

none of the lines are final, I`ll adjusting it and recheck all before in final stage. This design isn`t very finished so please keep that in mind.

Sequencer numbers can be much more smaller - while some of them can stand out - be bolder, bigger, inverted or both  ;) You decide. The limit is only the technique used - screen/engraving minimum x-height.

I really like them to be bigger than rest of lables. I didn`t print out this design for real world comparison but compared to rest of design it looks good to me. Bolding is not an option here and they are already inverted, or you maybe thinking about step noumbers? They can be bit smaller I guess, but I wanted keep it on 2 size of fonts. I`ll play with it more.

a good consideration could be typographic hierarchies - you're using them, but with current typeface it's less apparent. 

not sure I understand what does it means. :-[

overall, nice design!  ;) 

thanks

//EDIT: NO, i don't mean to throw more work on you Sasha!  ;)

If you can share the file (plus font file of course - free fonts foundries - no copyright issues),

i'll gladly do it myself for everybody's well being readability  ;D.

the font s free and widely available. I`ll publish the naked panel so you can all do your work post it here. I would really like to see yours.

Thanks for the suggestions.

I've not looked at the Greyhill switch properly, in terms of spindle/knob matching, I think it might look better to have the mode switch labels as two symmetrical columns of 8, one each side, but as I said, I think this might give rise to a pointer alignment problem, (I'm certain Sasha has already looked at this).

It is not possible. Only way is to have pattern sync out on 12 and computer control at 6 o`clock.

If it were possible, then the word 'Mode' could then be centred under the switch. Personally, I think the 'mode' label is redundant - the switch markings are self explanatory.
I separate the sections on my original design and each section have it`s name. As there are no sections now, mode should really be excluded.

Thank you for suggestions Mike

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I agree about Roland reasons for designing this font, but I find same font pretty readable but same time bit more interesting than something like Arial.

http://stream.qtv.apple.com/qtv/plexifilm/helveticatrailer_100.mov

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DrR-P5M1hRY&feature=related

Arial, the free Microsoft font - not typeface - is stolen and stripped down Helvetica.

If you're interested in graphics design, I strongly advice you to watch Helvetica The Documentary movie. Next time you're at your local DVD store, remember to ask for it; not because it's good movie, but because it's a good lesson in modern history.

You're correct, Helvetica  is a pretty much the neutral typeface we got used for. But no need to use it, there's a whole world behind Helvetica and the acid message can be delivered not less clearly with other choices... although this could be a nice challenge if readability becomes additional parameter (canceling each other!  ;D  ::)).


What font is used on original x0xb0x?

I don't know which typeface is this, but i must admit that the kerning (space between letters in a word) is incorrect. It should be a bit shorter.

If you really want to know which one is it, we can post a query in http://www.typophile.com/. These sharks know everything.

So, I would personally make labels at back panel upside down.

i think this is best solution too and I find it very useful.

I can send you the raw panel so you can do it your way if you want.

i do want additional one to experiment, but first i need to know it's price of course!  ;)

RUN/STOP: double function, staying in line would make it look bad.
Then slash glyph is redundant.

a good consideration could be typographic hierarchies - you're using them, but with current typeface it's less apparent.  Not sure I understand what does it means. :-[
Differences between typefaces. How you would differentiate between Headline, Sub-headline, Sidenotes and Text blocks within information flow. Using one typeface is more challenging task to accomplish this, and this exactly the reason designers like whole families of typefaces and not a single font.  ;D

the font is free and widely available. I`ll publish the naked panel so you can all do your work post it here.

yes that can be verrrry niiice. i would like you to post or PM me the artwork you've already done, just to make all corrections suggested, and not doing everything from scratch. You won't have to use it anyways, if you won't like it.

Thanks Sasha!  ::)

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"What font is used on original x0xb0x?"

a little help with the font: original x0xb0x font is bank Gothic BT medium (commercial font), you can check it here:http://www.myfonts.com/fonts/bitstream/bank-gothic/medium/

Sasha's font used is TR-909 (free font) which is just a look-alike of the font on Roland's TR 909, close but not really the same and lower quality.

Tip: if you can, use a commercial font, as free fonts tend to be not as polished as you would like, specially important on small sizes.

And talking about small sizes you may want to run some print tests before committing with any particular font as sometimes a good looking font on your screen is not as good when printed.

My rule of thumb: simpler it's better, test if you can be comfy with this rule, it may be worth it.

btw. nice panel's typography dissection kartoshka! ;)

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in attached file, the corections spoken - typographic mistakes - without modifying original Sasa's design too much.

also, env mode corrected.

Looking through 303 and x0x layouts, one question arose: is it should be tuning or tune knob?

on 303 it's tuning; while on limor's x0x it's tune.

Last, for Kartopersonalized version, week leading is minimim  ::) .. a lot of work should be done here.

i voted for screening as this advances the design.

I gonna use at least 2 colors, white and ... hmm the lovely typographic dark red.  Or my favorite orange  ;)

FINALNI TOP PANEL.zip

FINALNI TOP PANEL.zip

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Looking through 303 and x0x layouts, one question arose: is it should be tuning or tune knob?

on 303 it's tuning; while on limor's x0x it's tune.

My 2 cents:

I usually go by the rule "whichever you choose make sure it's consistent". What that means is, do the other knobs say what you change with them or what you use them for? I. e. "I use this knob to change the TUNE of the box" vs. "This knob is for TUNING". Choose one (I prefer the first variant) and go with it ;)

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After calling the laser guy over and over, I finally get and answer. >:( The price for raw panels is 20EUR. Not  sure about paint job. If I do it It wan`t be expensive but I would rather let pro do it, even I`m always suspicious about their quality of work due to bad experiences from the past. I would like to check other options made out of Rowmark laserable plastics as it would make my life much easier. Prof is sending me the PT10 case soon, so I can test it. I need to see how can I buy laserable meterial as their working hours overlap mine.  :-\

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  • 2 weeks later...

Just to let you know why there are no news about panel...

I spend half of salary for this months cutting the  big sheet of screen of acrylic protectors for Wilba but Corel mess the DXF while importing so I ended with 260 pcs of protectors with wrong dimension. I`m really low on money right now, so I cannot buy a sheet of laserable Rowmark nor do the tests panel.

Sorry everybody. If I get some money before next salary I`ll buy a sheet and cut one panel. Thanks for understanding.

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make a donation for Sasha, how much does it cost a panel for the test?

I can`t accept a donation as I cannot received money inexpensive way and have got no full PayPal account. For organizing x0x PCB batch I needed favor for money transfer. :-\

Not sure about cost of 1 panel. I need to buy whole sheet to do it. I have Rowmark Texture material left, but I would rather try some less flexible one.

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I can`t call it fun, but hardy anything is fun and easy to do here.  :-\

I would really like to offer you panel with this PCB, but there is no perfect and inexpensive all in one solution for metal panels. Laserable plasics would be good compromise. There is one local company that are making anodized CNC mill/engraved panels but they are probably expensive as Shaeffer. As we still didn`t find all needed parts I can "buy" some more time for these panels.

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There's always the option of using the same place as Altitude did for the MB panels. I know the screwed up with the silk screening, but we could get that done elsewere and the panels were reasonable, except for the odd burr.... maybe we could sort something out with DaveBanner??/

          G

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TheProf just sent me 120EUR over WU yesterday as a loan without my knowledge. Thank you very much Mike. I don`t feel very peaceful about one more loan but I wan`t refuse it anyway.

But, I want be able to do anything before next week as I`m just starting to work 8AM-11PM in next 5 days. I`ll ask one day off, next week so I can go to buy a material, and hopefully cut it same day. I`ll probably cut one panel out of Rowmark Texture I already have to test it. I`ll keep you informed.

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Hmnnnn,, think I've found the panel for my second x0x... I'm building two; one with the rotated buttons and mods, using Sashas boards and a stock one using a board from ladyada... Somebodies designed some WASP type panels and there's an order going on at the moment..

x0xWASP%2072dpi.jpg

Order is here http://forums.ladyada.net/viewtopic.php?t=5544 Obviously these wouldn't go with Sasha's modified PCB's though

I've wanted a Wasp for a while... Simply because it looks cool, at $50 a panel it's a bit pricey tho.

Does anyone know if it's possible to get the button caps in yellow?

            G

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