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Ian_Hurlock
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Maybe someone could program an online game, that uses midi controls to play the game, then we could see who has the lowest latency muscle reflexes! (but not anything to do with war, please!)

other than that, I will be going to the SMPTE trade show next week, in Sydney, Hey Thorsten, do you want me to print out the front page of your website, and stick copies on the walls?  ;) ;D (though security will probably pull them down!) But then again, jealous companies exhibiting their not so cool control surfaces may not be cool with this! he he!

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huumm I think Midibox have to get more audience! It's an alternative in the midi controller product we can found in the market! Maybe we have to post message to Home Studio magazine in our country, to make them  konw that in Germany, there is a guy called Thorsten which is making the midi device of the futur ;)

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In answer to pilo... I think Nomical is right...

Dunno how the rest of you guys found this site but I did by doing a google search for "diy midi controller"

Anybody who wants to do that and know how to use the net will find us :)

And, of course, spreading the word to our friends and families is still one of the best way to go :D

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... I totally disagree!

Why? because I don't understand why we should be the only ones to know about the midibox?

I think Thorsten works on it because people are making it! And I don't see what is the problem if it's known by more people! Thorsten releases some parts of MIOS with the GPL, it's his choice (I don't know if you have read the GPL, if you haven't, do it...)

But I don't think the problem is here, because TK didn't "re-invent the wheel", what he makes, is a powerful modular system of midi controller, and so nobody could take advantage of his work. Don't forget that the main advantage of  the midibox is that you make your own! and no one can sell you that!

So if you mean that you don't want other people to make midiboxes... it's quite silly! (it's what I understand)

I don't know if you understand me well (because of my average english level), but making midi controller (like mackie or peavey...), is easier to design than midibox! So no one can make money on his back, but for selling MBHP kits! and by making this site more famous we can avoid that...

Well I have had the idea to make a midi controller some years ago, but I gave up... about 9 months ago I found ucapps by mistake...!!! And I think that a lot of people can be interested in making midiboxes, but just don't know this is as easy as TK made it!

That's why I think we should make this site more famous....

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Well ok, you really have some good points there.

But the only thing i meant was the fact that there are going to be people how are gonna take these ideas and are going to make a lot of money out of it. You and me don't want it, Thorsten sure as hell doesn't. That's just the way this twisted world sometimes works.

But i understood what you meant.

Also, it seems that Thorstens ideas have their own reputation which seems to attract people! ;D

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Hi

We need as many like minded people in this community as we can get.

The more minds involved, the more ideas that will be contributed, the fast this system will develop.

We can't rely on TK to do everything for us, One man just dosen't have the time to do so. Therefore as I said above we need more members who are actively envolved in the evolution of the MBHP.

Every new member brings with them their own personal expireance and knowledge, which is benifical to us ALL.

Anyway back to the topic, A confrence is a great idea. Though I'm not going to be able to afford a ticket to the other side of the world at the rate my MB if chewing through the cash.

Much respect and love to ALL midiboxer's

Rowan

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I guess we rely on peoples goodwill to not abuse the system... the midibox system is kind of a gift to us. Thorsten has made a choice to genorously share his ideas and hard work with us, for the enjoyment of many friendly people, at the slight risk that someone may rip off his ideas to make money out of it.

 I think there are easier ways for dodgy people to make money than to build midiboxes for profit!! It takes a long time to build them, it would probably be easier to work for money at maccas and buy a real logic control than to build this one, but I enjoy the process, the challenge, and having complete creative control over what I build!

 I'm just throwing ideas out in the open, I'm not challenging anyone's thinking, or disagreeing with anyone. We all see things differently.

 Maybe we will find a way, one day, of having a midibox convention! C'mon, if Thorsten can make this midibox project happen, surely someone can think of an idea to make this a reality he he! (maybe wishful thinking ;))

have fun all, from Steve

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OK this  "dodgy people making midiboxes for profit" subthread is making me publicly ask something that has been keeping me busy for a while.

I made a software for VJ's and musicians wanting to do some audio/MIDI responsive visuals to their live shows.

It is not open source, I sell it at 85 euro, which I think is a steal because I spent over 3 years making it, it is more powerful than a lot of apps going for 4x the price, and I really hope it is affordable for everyone at this price.

I'm currently starting building some MIDIboxes, with special configuration towards my VJ software, but also useful with other apps.  Now this is great that I can make one for myself, but I have no way of sharing this joy with the users of my program. I can put online a tutorial how to make their own controller, but I cannot honestly ask from my customers to make their own Midibox, I mean not many people out of a random selection would have the skills/knowledge to do this.

I'm also way to small a company (1 man) to start any production line to make these things cost effective.

But it would be immensely useful to me if there was some way for me to license the MIOS design, make a small run of controllers, and sell them at slightly over cost price. Not because I want to make profit on selling MIDI boxes, because I think that its going to be next to impossible to cheaply produce small runs of these things, but having a dedicated hardware controller available would add value to my software (ease of use).

Now if there would be a way for me to pay for each sold controller, even if I would only make $10 per controller to cover the overhead, that would be great for me. I think a lot of other software producers would feel similarly.

I can see why a goodwill based open source project has a lot of bias against commercial approaches, but 'commercial' means anything from making $1 to making $1 billion doesnt it really. I think this question is relevant not only in the great MIDIBOX projects but to any open source project in general, and I really think allowing 'commercial' use of open source projects could benefit the development of these open source projects.

I would be glad to discuss this matter with all of you, perhaps in another thread if required (this has gone way offtopic already)

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How big's your house Steve ?  

not big enough for a convention, if that's what you mean, and not big enough for a secret midibox factory either ;)

Robotfunk.. (that name is so cool! ;D)

 yes I understand your thinking, I have often thought about whether Thorsten would want to license his ideas as well (for purposes like what you mentioned), but I feel that Thorsten wouldn't be interested, as maybe he is already happy with the amount of money he earns.

On another note Many friends have asked me to build a LC clone for them, and offered me money to do this, and I tell them... "I will sit down with you, work out the features you want, and work out a parts list, you can go and buy the parts, and if you can't put it together yourself, I will charge a small fee to put it together for you" (I haven't done this for anyone yet) I think this is still ok ??? (tell me what you think Thorsten?) as they are having creative control, seeing the coming together of their project, although I would get some money (a small amount compared to standard labour rates, to cover my time, say $100 or less for all the effort I would put in, this would really be only a token payment, hardly called profit) Well maybe this isn't what Thorsten wants for his project.

 Tell me what you think TK? (feel free to delete this message if you think it could encourage misuse of your hard work)

Anyway, I think that soon the price of commercial controllers will come crashing down anyway. Maybe you can design a custom surface, and connect it to a cheap commercially built controller? For much less effort than building midiboxes?

good luck with your software...

bye, from Steve

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Hi guys,

My take on this is no commercialisation. I may be wrong but the impression i get from Thorsten is that he does this projects because :-

1. He needs the device for his own use

2. To keep up his assembly programming skills

3. for the challenge and his own interests

4. To accomodate the rest of our needs if it doesnt cost him too much time and is an improvement to an existing device.

I dont think anyone should commercialize the apps (i.e. Midibox16E, Midbox64, MB LC/MC etc). I dont think he wants to make life difficult for the companies that do this for a living cos we all know his designs knocks the socks off the competition performance and feature wise.

Like everything else in this world if you want to own one of Thorsten's designs then you have to pay the price; and his price is $DIY. I think thats more than a fair price cost you get freebies like enjoyment , a sense of personal achievement and knowledge if you're willing to pick it up. For those that can't than get a friend who can to help. But with the upcoming approved kits being sold with parts list and PCBs it should be even easier. And if you still cant, my advice is to buy of the shelf. For maybe US$800.00 you get 9 channels of Touch sense P&G optical MotorFaders, encoders with ledrings, nice scrubwheel and a whole lot more without losing your precious revenue generating time, your patience and a whole lot of hair.

Peace

Frank

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Thanks Frank, the four points are a nice abstract of my goals.

I've also the same oppinion about DIY like you wrote, but I think that I should also clarify what the GPL means: it opens the design also for commercial parties.

Pilo: the GPL says that - from the legal point of view - these projects can be distributed, modified and re-used for other projects. They could also be used for commercial products so long as the terms of the GPL are not violated. In fact this means: if a big company would build and sell MIOS based MIDI controllers, they would have to publish all the stuff which is necessary to reconstruct the complete product (with all it's improvements) for free.

An improbable Example: if Yamaha would start to build MIDIbox SID clones with cost-optimized PCBs, an improved circuit and usefull application enhancements, they would have to publish the results also under GPL - it would be a benefit for us all. However, Yamaha would never do this, as other companies could use these sources to offer an even cheaper MIDIbox SID for less profit.

In theory... the other side of the story is my willing to support people who want to commercialize my projects. As MIDIbox should stay a hobby project for myself, I will spend no minute to give design & programming hints for those peoples - even for a fee, as my sparetime is more valuable than money. I will also not help a user (consumer) who bought a ready made MIDIbox for the same reasons.

Robotfunk: please don't take this statement as personal attack against you (I played with your software a time ago, it's a really usable and mighty tool! :-)) - I will just prevent any additional effort for myself before a "go" decition triggers an avalanche of requests from other interested parties (I refused all requests successfully in the last years). If you want to sell MIOS based controllers, then do it, but please don't expect any support from my side, and make all the project sources free available.

Steve: what you are doing is 100% accepted from my side so long as you help these people if they notice problems with the design.

One last statement to this issue (summa summarum): I don't like commercial MIDIbox products and I will ignore any request, but the GPL allows others to sell ready-made MIDIboxes under the circumstances which are listed under http://www.gnu.org/copyleft/gpl.html

To the first question - I don't see the possibility for a MIDIbox Convention in the next months, especially because we are spreaded other the whole world (think about the traveling costs... ;-)) but maybe we could try an online conference via IRC or a tool like Netmeeting one day. :)

Best Regards, Thorsten.

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Thanks for your reply Thorsten, I totally understand your not willing to offer your time for people developing/using commercial midi controllers.

My question was rhethorical more than anything else, as I said, I would not have a way of producing these things cost effectively, have enough trouble building my own one.

Was just thinking aloud really, and even if it would be legal to make a 'commercial' MIOS based controller, I wouldn't feel right making money from someone elses hard work that he chose to share in an open source spirit.

I would have felt less troubled if I could do anything in return. Maybe a financial transaction is old fashioned but it just goes to show the friction between ideas of traditional economics and the open source community.

I totally understand your concerns about people 'buying your time' with their money and that introducing money into things is not without danger. But in some cases (im not saying in this one) it might have merit, again just thinking aloud about this 'problem'.

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Anyway, I think that soon the price of commercial controllers will come crashing down anyway. Maybe you can design a custom surface, and connect it to a cheap commercially built controller? For much less effort than building midiboxes?

Yes I already did that, people can download an overlay for the doepfer pocket dial

http://www.robotfunk.com/doepfer_small.gif

but thats nothing compared to a real MIDIBOX of course :)

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