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stryd_one

Noise Law was Re: Boss Dr55 Mod

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Damn i hope the cops don't conviscate my equipment.

Wha??

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Confiscate stryddie..... typo error

I life in an appartment which is pretty noisy and my neighbours don't like dance music at the volume i play it sometimes. And the BD of the Dr55 can go pretty low....especially with a distortion behind it 8)

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Yeh I get all that.... but the cops can confiscate your gear there, for a noise complaint ?!? WTF!

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Yes my friend, they can and they will do that...there are some rules to it btw. When the coppers arrive at the door they must hear loud music so they can confirm the complaint. So most of the times you can play hard music but not to long. If they don't hear that then there is no problem. Then it will be my word against that of the neighbours and they cannot choose sides in that matter. You get your equipment back eventually and mostly you have to pay a fine.

Yes that's the down side of Holland when you life with 17 million people on a inch of the world. There is never any rest.....you can't even walk any where here without seeing or hearing human noise for 5 minutes. It's not healthy and i really want to leave Holland. How are things down under? I've been thinking about your country a lot.....

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Wow what a police state. I mean sure, some peace and quiet is good sometimes, but neighbours can talk with each other and work something out...but.... WTF is it that people who want quiet, have more rights than people who want music?

Here in .au there are noise laws, but only at certain times of the day in residential areas. I can play music as loud as I like (within EPA limits) during the day, until 11pm. I think playing loud music after that is generally a bit inconsiderate anyway... The cops certainly can't take your gear though. They can order you to turn it down, they can arrest you for disturbing the peace if you refuse (at which point they can enter your property to turn it off themselves)... but even then, they can't take it. Only a court order would allow that.

I think australia is one of the greatest nations there is, but sadly the problems that you experience are not local...the whole planet is being driven by the same stupid shit (legal/political/financial/religious stupidity) and given sufficient time, we all go the same way.

Back in the day, this situation woulda been simple... The copper would visit you, and say "hey Bob next door complained about your music" and you'd discuss it. If his common sense determined you were being unreasonable, he'd make you turn it down, if not, he'd tell the neighbour to be reasonable... And that'd be the end of it.

Heck. It probably wouldn't even go that far - it'd probably be Bob sticking his head over the fence and saying "hey I've gotta crash early for work, would you mind turning that down a touch?", and you'd say, "sure Bob!".

Alas, common sense has been crushed to death by the aforementioned stupidity....

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Here in .au there are noise laws, but only at certain times of the day in residential areas. I can play music as loud as I like (within EPA limits) during the day, until 11pm.

You sure about that? In the last week I've had the cops around to my place at 3:00pm on a tuesday, and last night at 7:00pm..

And do you know whats horrible about it? Is that we were all wearing headphones, no amplification, and we were using an electronic drum kit!

I'm pretty sure he got bored of hearing the kick drum beater.. fuk, I've moved to headphones to try and make him happy, and I BOUGHT AN ELECTRONIC DRUM KIT!!! We even had the whole kit on a big rubber mat to reduce the floor noise. I can't win.

The next time I get some neighbour complaining about something, instead of being nice and helpful (& spending cash on solutions) I'm gonna act like a crazy violent fuker, because, in the past thats worked real well... Lesson learned.

Speaking of annoying neighbours, my mate had his neighbour come up and ask him to turn off his fan heater as the noise was distracting..

I've also had a neighbour ask me to take the sausages off the BBQ as the smell was keeping awake.. lol..

Regards

Mike

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You sure about that? In the last week I've had the cops around to my place at 3:00pm on a tuesday, and last night at 7:00pm..

The building site two doors down from me was using a jackhammer at those times. I could also hear the kid two doors up practicing his drums, and three doors up playing piano (that kid is fuckin talented).

The cops may come around to act upon a noise complaint, but you are entirely within your rights to point out that the noise is at an acceptable level for the time of day, and that above your responsibilities you have taken extraordinary measures to reduce the noise, and ask the cop to do something about your neighbour's unreasonable complaints.

Rather than being violent, you can achieve the same effect, without dragging our society to a point where people don't feel safe to talk to their neighbours: The pen is mightier than the sword. Keep in mind, that when that was said, there weren't telephones or teh int3rwebz. Take pics of your setup, including rubber mat on floor, headphones, etc. Take video footage of the sound it (doesn't) make when you play. Compare to typical kitchen noises in the video. Email the pics and video to your local council, with a story explaining what a nice guy you are for spending megabucks to silence your rig, and asking them to help with silencing your neighbour from hell. Call the police station (during the day, and be nice!) and ask them for advice. Call legal aid. You can make a ruckus without scaring the shit out of the guy. He'll give up either way, once the cops tell him he's being unreasonable. They always do.

Oh. Google is our friend:

http://www.melbourne.vic.gov.au/info.cfm?top=46&pg=668

Especially:

http://www.melbourne.vic.gov.au/info.cfm?top=46&pg=675

Seems it's 9pm now, not 11.

Notice that the law is a total crock of shit. How unusual. By those laws, noone in Melbourne can use a television (even with the sound turned down) or computer (no speakers) or telephone (mobile or fixed) or even a fricken lightbulb, between 8pm and 7am.

Any electric equipment or appliance not falling within Group 2, Group 3, or Group 4, including electric gardening equipment.

Monday to Friday: before 7am and after 8pm. Weekends and public holidays: before 9am and after 8pm.

Pfff.

Point is, it comes down to interpretation. Don't tell the cops "oh shit mate, that guy's a dickhead, I wasn't doin' nuffin!" .. Don't send some sloppily written crap to the council with a dodgy ass video of your trashy studio with overflowing ashtrays playing deathcore drums in a stained t-shirt. Come across as a concerned and community-minded semi-professional artist who has gone to great lengths to appease a neighbour, who is now being unfairly harassed by said neighbour, and needs the assistance of a fair-minded third party. If it's not total BS, which it obviously is not, they'll come around.

Sure it sucks that you have to play the game, but it beats the alternatives (being a thug/being a doormat). Course, if the system fails, pay some dudes to bash the ******.

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Well the law in Holland ain't much different....you can make noise in an acceptable way between 8 am and 10 pm...which is reasonable in my eyes....but if my neighbour (which is a female of 25 years old!! ) starts complaining about music while i'm not even home well than i'm not a nice guy. She even complained about a noise that was going for an hour....i told the police does she ever heared of a washdryer....

She is the second neighbour who came to life next to me and the first one never complained...in the 3 years that this bitch is living next to me she has called the coppas to many times.......and in the beginnening i explained to her..i'm a dj/artist and if you want me to turn it down just send me a text message or call.....but only after 10 pm. Suddenly she started sending messages around 4 pm....and sometimes if you're in the middle of making a demo...well you understand.

The crazy thing is that nowhere in the Dutch law it's clear what is nuisance??? If a train passes (the station is near) the db me and a friend measured was about 75db to 85 db.......if you talk you already make about 55 to 60 db. So i asked the coppas show me the law then i'll hold me to it but they can't.

So it's okay for someone to drill holes in a wall all day but 1 hour of loud music is nuisance......i just can't figure it out.....

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The crazy thing is that nowhere in the Dutch law it's clear what is nuisance??? If a train passes (the station is near) the db me and a friend measured was about 75db to 85 db.......if you talk you already make about 55 to 60 db. So i asked the coppas show me the law then i'll hold me to it but they can't.

So it's okay for someone to drill holes in a wall all day but 1 hour of loud music is nuisance......i just can't figure it out.....

There's nothing to figure out, it's right in your face. Law is a crock of shit. You're a bitch to the bullying masses and the whim of a few individuals who have empowered themselves with the "right" to control your life. Enjoy.

OMG how far off topic are we? :D

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Good thing you cut this thread in half man (although you scared the sh*t out of me..where the hell was the first part???)....this wasn't on topic of the Dr55 anymore.....

But yeah...i think we do need some laws otherwise things get outta hand, i think you agree with me on that one...mainly because a great part of the world needs guidance...they are just to stupid and lack intelligence..(arrogance isn't an issue in this matter its true).

Like i was raised with good norms and values and i won't harm anyone in any way if i can avoid it...

But you are right that these assholes make the laws in there advantage i agree on that....i think there is a world wide conspiracy to control....to keep money and funds in a small circle of those that are in power....i think its time that we the bigger part of the world should stand up against the western and so called civilised goverments......many laws are way to old and should be changed. Only thing i can think of is to make a new political party that will intrude in a lot of goverments so we can fight them from the inside.....the only question is how?????

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Edit: this is the bit where the chatroom regulars go "OMG don't say that you'll start him on an anarchy rant" :D

But yeah...i think we do need some laws otherwise things get outta hand, i think you agree with me on that one...mainly because a great part of the world needs guidance...they are just to stupid and lack intelligence..

Actually I disagree, I believe that the constant "guidance" has left most people untrained and hence unable to control themselves. I do agree they are "stupid", or ignorant to be more precise... But the ignorance is due to the law, not in spite of it. Furthermore, the laws we have promote desperation that drives people to crime.

The concept that one day we'll all get along perfectly, through Law or lack thereof, is just ridiculous - people will always disagree - but a quick look at our genetic ancestry (monkeys) will prove that our default mode of behaviour toward one another, prior to the introduction of Law and other methods of mass control, is not of conflict but of cooperation. If it weren't so, we wouldn't be here. Applying our ability to process information to this behaviour pattern, it's clear that despite the inevitable disagreements, we can handle them in a far more amicable manner than your average chimp. IE, we can talk and reason and work things out, rather than have a fight about it. Chimps don't have that option. We do, but we don't use it.

People seem to think that the removal of laws will result in some kind of 'Mad Max' style society, but think about it: The vast majority of human beings choose not to harm others when they would not want to be treated that way themselves. The vast majority of the exceptions to that rule are only that way due to the desperation induced by our society.

Only thing i can think of is to make a new political party that will intrude in a lot of goverments so we can fight them from the inside.....the only question is how?????

That's called terrorism, it's against the law. Before the "terrorists" there were "communists" and other such "criminals". The underground never goes away, but sadly brainwashing is extremely effective, and the masses will fight it even though they have no clue what they're taking about.

I sat in a waiting room the other day watching a live feed of the bombing and shooting in India, listening to the receptionist carry on about how these al-qaida terrorists (omg) were bad people and should all be shot... I didn't even bother trying to tell her that the "terrorist" attacks in India this week are actually part of a feud that has been ongoing for several centuries, and that the land was stolen from the "terrorists" as a part of the winding up of WWII when India and Pakistan were separated by a third party.

Nor did I point out that by shooting someone because your views on the world differ from theirs, you're doing EXACTLY what the 'terrorists' aka freedom fighters, are doing. EXACTLY. Oh, but yaknow... it's different, they're being evil and we're not..... Whatever. They say the same of us. Who are we to pass judgement? Are we empowering ourselves with the right to differentiate right from wrong?

Therein lies the fault in trying to break the system from within. It doesn't matter what the system is. If there's a mechanism for providing power to one man over another, someone WILL take advantage of it. They may do it through conspiracy or ignorance or ego or emotional bias or whatever, it may be intentional or otherwise, but they'll do it.

There's no freedom in power, but there's power in freedom.

Now go read Nineteen Eighty-Four. It's your future, you should know how it's gonna be. We already have big brother protecting us from terr'ists and we already have three unions and a token war in the middle of it all. We already have rendition and brainwashing and government agents among us. It's fiction, but it ain't fiction.

So long as we promote the concept of making the masses fit into a convenient mould via law/finance/government/religion/whatever tool you like, this problem is not going away. Want Proof? I give you the entire history of humankind. We've tried everything BUT anarchy, and none of the systems have worked. Do the math........

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Damn i must have pushed some button on Stryddie :D

Well i agree that i was born as a free human being on planet earth and i don't need no mf laws to control me...but i know a lot of people that don't seem to have a concious and really don't care about nothing. They will kill you in a flash...i don't say that these "humans" are friends of mine no way.....but they lack almost everything..compassion etc...so what about these fuckers then????

Further more i don't believe we belong or are originated on earth...we are not in balance with nature....i believe in the Jung theory that we are planet hoppers...

About the brainwashing part........kill television. As soon as we can see and hear we are watching television....i think take away this medium and we will have a whole different planet.

"There's no freedom in power, but there's power in freedom."

Nicely said.

The undercover anarchist.

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blah blah blah, anarchy, blah blah...

if you get your wish, will will be a slave to me, the ultimate alpha male monkey, and will cower in fear with the other weaklings, while i copulate with all the females...

-king monkey

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blah blah blah, anarchy, blah blah...

if you get your wish, will will be a slave to me, the ultimate alpha male monkey, and will cower in fear with the other weaklings, while i copulate with all the females...

-king monkey

Whahahhahahahhaaaaa :D just stay away from my bitches you evil monkey....

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but i know a lot of people that don't seem to have a concious and really don't care about nothing. They will kill you in a flash...i don't say that these "humans" are friends of mine no way.....but they lack almost everything..compassion etc...so what about these fuckers then????

Take away the laws that made them that way, the laws that enable and encourage them to continue that way. Problem solved.  :)

About the brainwashing part........kill television. As soon as we can see and hear we are watching television....i think take away this medium and we will have a whole different planet.

Don't blame the tool for the actions of it's operator. TV can be a fantastic source of education or entertainment...or a haven for soft porn to distract the masses. Just like the internet really.... but yeh in it's current incarnation, it's not too flash. But, think about things like uhm... animal conservation. White rhino would be history if not for TV... Just one example.

I always say, that any tool is just like a sharp stick. You can use it to hunt or farm food for your community, and protect them at night, and build shelter.... or you can slaughter them all in their sleep.

A tool is just a lump of stuff until you use it. I've seen embedded microprocessors end the lives of dozens of people - hell, we all have, thanks to live bomb camera footage in Iraq and Afghanistan...and I've seen midiboxen educate and entertain thousands :D It's what you do with it that counts. (I'm sure there's a dirty joke there)

buggy: Yeh I know, you're a "Mad Max scenario" guy... but we have that situation already (they may not copulate with the females but they certainly dominate all others). Difference is, we can't change it, because it's against the law. In an anarchaic society, unwanted behaviour would quickly be met with an unpleasant response, and alpha monkeys would quickly learn that shit doesn't work any more ... while trying to find a new place to live, and avoiding the other ejected would-be-dominator monkeys. Before long, all the monkeys learn to show respect to all the other monkeys, when they realise that they get back whatever they put out. Those that don't, go elsewhere to dominate each other into oblivion. Point is, a clever monkey knows that we ain't monkeys no more, and we sure as hell don't need to compete like monkeys any more; in contrast to that, we can propagate our species beyond the wildest dreams of the most crazy monkey, by cooperating. Such is the wonder of the degree of communication and computational skill we possess. But we're not using it.

You and I are a great example of how it oughta be. We don't always get along, but we show each other respect (like, this  conversation... plus, notice I'm not using smilies? hehe) and we cooperate, and between us both we bring more to this community than either of us could do without that interaction. It spreads, too - I saw someone else handing out advice the other day that was a near-quote of one I gave out. That's wicked, because while he did that, I was finding a bug that TK then fixed. I've seen dudes repeat your advice while you and nILS worked on some circuit. We all worked together and everybody 'won'. You see that in all kinds of communities; people helping each other out, and the synergy that it bears.

Sadly back in the real world, there's enforced, inflated, manufactured competition. Enforced by law, inflated by economics, and manufactured by government. I don't really think it's some kind of deliberate conspiracy,and I'm not about preaching universal love (maaan), but I do know that law is domination, and that cooperation and domination are mutually exclusive. Two heads are better than one; unless you put a gun to them, then they're both pretty much blubbering messes.

Or if they're monkey heads. Then they just eat beetles from each other's ears.

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Take away the laws that made them that way, the laws that enable and encourage them to continue that way. Problem solved.  :)

Don't blame the tool for the actions of it's operator. TV can be a fantastic source of education or entertainment...or a haven for soft porn to distract the masses. Just like the internet really.... but yeh in it's current incarnation, it's not too flash. But, think about things like uhm... animal conservation. White rhino would be history if not for TV... Just one example.

I always say, that any tool is just like a sharp stick. You can use it to hunt or farm food for your community, and protect them at night, and build shelter.... or you can slaughter them all in their sleep.

A tool is just a lump of stuff until you use it. I've seen embedded microprocessors end the lives of dozens of people - hell, we all have, thanks to live bomb camera footage in Iraq and Afghanistan...and I've seen midiboxen educate and entertain thousands :D It's what you do with it that counts. (I'm sure there's a dirty joke there)

Dude that's a lot of horse shit. Some people are born that way. Law or no law. They are missing some gen inside them or some chromosones. You're blaming the law for everything that ain't right. no smileys no more.

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Dude that's a lot of horse shit. Some people are born that way. Law or no law. They are missing some gen inside them or some chromosones. You're blaming the law for everything that ain't right. no smileys no more.

Sadly you're quite mistaken.

Some people, a very very few people, are born that way, yes. The condition is referred to as sociopathy, and it means that the natural, in-built function of the human brain which allows a human to 'feel' the feeling of another person and protect them, is not functional; which results in a person completely devoid of compassion for others. But the majority are a product of their environment. And not all sociopaths are born that way, it's easy to program someone to match the behaviour of a sociopath.

I'll use you as an example. Do you drive a car? Wear polyester? Buy any products which are detrimental to the environment like most foods? Buy foods in plastic packaging? Pay taxes which are used by your military to kill people including innocent civilians? Have a bank account (which encourages the charging of interest)? These are just a few examples, all plenty evil things to do, all cause great pain to our fellow man and other animals on this planet....but we all do them, because that's how things work in our environment. It's not that you don't care, you're no sociopath; it's that you have little choice, and you do as you have learnt from the world around you. Monkey see, monkey do.

Edit: now that I think about it, I know for a fact that you are sitting behind a PC that was built using cheap labor from hungry dudes in China. Does this mean you support slavery? Of course it doesn't.

Ask yourself, how many of these bad-guys you know of, that do not come from a low socio-economic or criminal background.... Look at the population of any average prison. Almost all dudes from poor backgrounds.

Gonna pull out that Mos Def quote I love so much:

"Niggas don't sell crack cause they like to see blacks smoke/ niggas sell crack cause they're broke"

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... Monkey see, monkey do...

king monkey does not like this denigration of monkeykind!

you will pay for your insolence!

YOU HAVE BEEN WARNED!!!

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EEEEK!

[me=stryd_one]screeches and runs up the nearest tree[/me]

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Sadly you're quite mistaken.

Some people, a very very few people, are born that way, yes. The condition is referred to as sociopathy, and it means that the natural, in-built function of the human brain which allows a human to 'feel' the feeling of another person and protect them, is not functional; which results in a person completely devoid of compassion for others. But the majority are a product of their environment. And not all sociopaths are born that way, it's easy to program someone to match the behaviour of a sociopath.

I'll use you as an example. Do you drive a car? Wear polyester? Buy any products which are detrimental to the environment like most foods? Buy foods in plastic packaging? Pay taxes which are used by your military to kill people including innocent civilians? Have a bank account (which encourages the charging of interest)? These are just a few examples, all plenty evil things to do, all cause great pain to our fellow man and other animals on this planet....but we all do them, because that's how things work in our environment. It's not that you don't care, you're no sociopath; it's that you have little choice, and you do as you have learnt from the world around you. Monkey see, monkey do.

Edit: now that I think about it, I know for a fact that you are sitting behind a PC that was built using cheap labor from hungry dudes in China. Does this mean you support slavery? Of course it doesn't.

Ask yourself, how many of these bad-guys you know of, that do not come from a low socio-economic or criminal background.... Look at the population of any average prison. Almost all dudes from poor backgrounds.

Gonna pull out that Mos Def quote I love so much:

"Niggas don't sell crack cause they like to see blacks smoke/ niggas sell crack cause they're broke"

First: no i don't drive a car, i own three bikes and i travel with public transport.

Second: no i don't wear or own any polyester clothing.

Three: i hate it that everything is three double packed and i try to avoid it as much as i can but a man has gotta eat.

Four: i need a bank account otherwise i can't get paid by my employer.

Five: i tried not to pay my taxes but in the end it bit me in the ass.

Six: i agree that we have to do these things even if we don't like them.

Seven: yes its true most of them come from poor backgrounds.

Eight: nigga get a job...its bullshit that you have to sell dope because youre broke. i've been broke many times and never ever  sold any drugs and i'm from Holland drug capitol of the world. i just got real good friends that are there when i'm in need.

Nine: anarchy is not going to change this.

Ten: fill in the blanks. we're not originated from monkeys but i do love to climb trees.

if you're so fed up with it stryd what are YOU going to do about it?

i wished i could change the world from when i was a little kid. screaming at the news, papers and all the non equalty around the world but i can't...i wish i could..... really trust me on that.

is this tree taken?

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First: no i don't drive a car, i own three bikes and i travel with public transport.

Me too, you've missed the point.

Second: no i don't wear or own any polyester clothing.

Me too, you've missed the point. (Bet you've got some bleached cotton that was grown inorganically in a foreign environment though.)

Three: i hate it that everything is three double packed and i try to avoid it as much as i can but a man has gotta eat.

Me too, and you're starting to get the point.

Four: i need a bank account otherwise i can't get paid by my employer.

Me too, you're getting the point. The law says you have to support the charging of interest. You don't support ripping people off, but you do play your part in it.

Five: i tried not to pay my taxes but in the end it bit me in the ass.

LOL Me too, me too... you're still missing the point though...

Six: i agree that we have to do these things even if we don't like them.

Exactly the point :)

Seven: yes its true most of them come from poor backgrounds.

So, remove the laws that keep them poor (etc), problem solved.

Eight: nigga get a job...its bullshit that you have to sell dope because youre broke.

Careful with the N word man, I was quoting a famous African-American who said it.

Easy to say "get a job", but what if you're physically disabled and uneducated? That's just an example. Heck, I'm educated and disabled and otherwise living well, and I can't get a job. The concept that anyone can just get a job is brainwashing dude. You think people *like* being homeless and jobless? Seriously, clue in buddy. Anyway, still missing the point...

I'm not attacking you for doing these things, I was just listing enough stuff that I knew I would get a "yes, I do that evil thing" from you. Most people would have said yes to most of them, you should be proud you only had a couple ;)

The point is, sometimes, people feel a need to do things they wouldn't otherwise want to do, in order to survive. These situations are enforced by law. You do it, I do it, everyone does it. You can get defensive about it like you have, or you can accept that you're as big a part of the problem as anyone, but that doesn't make you a bad person because it's NOT BY YOUR OWN CHOICE.

i just got real good friends that are there when i'm in need.

You're very lucky, lots of people don't.

Nine: anarchy is not going to change this.

What would? Given that laws(government, economics) create the problems, does logic not indicate that eradicating the laws would eradicate the problem?

Ten: fill in the blanks.

What blanks?

if you're so fed up with it stryd what are YOU going to do about it?

Educate the people around me, disseminate dissent, encourage revolution, protest, do my best to avoid the bad stuff, etc. What am I gonna do? I'm doing it right now :)

What about you? Are you going to buck the system, or are you going to get defensive every time someone calls you out? Your anger is aimed at the wrong guy; you're shooting the messenger. Aim at a politician. Aim at a banker. Just don't aim at the guy who on your side, just because he's telling the ugly truth.

but i can't...i wish i could.....

Try, man, it's all you can do.

really trust me on that.

I do bro, I do. That's why I say this stuff. Damn near everyone wants to change it. They just can't, because changing it is illegal.

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So we're agreeing on a lot of points and I/we think there are a lot of other people out there that want the same thing. So how are we going to organize this? How are we going the change this then? Like in the town i'm living i did a lot of voluntery work mostly with the youth of this town. I like the idea to do stuff for people even when i'm not getting paid. So how are we going to knock down this stupid system? We can talk and talk and talk but talking hasn't changed a bit. It's time for action, but action in a civilised way. And when we're going to organize this aren't the people whom we're talking to listing to us then just like the way that they are listing now to the "laws"? And aren't we creating excactly the same thing? It's a bloody difficult problem and i think people should realize it themselfs. And this takes time, but howlong? If this continues like the way it is, the poor will get even poorer and the rich even richer. And eventually this may result in a revolution of some kind.

But i truly understand your points....western "civilisation" is keeping a big part of the world poor. We got enough food, water and resources to give any human living soul a good life but "our" goverments prevent that to keep them selfs rich. I realize this way to well.....the only thing is if i keep worrying on this i prevent myself in my own happiness. In other words i do care about it but i can't think of it every minute of the day. At some point it was so bad that i coulnd't watch the news or read the papers anymore. I like justice and equalty for all.

About the N word....it was that you quoted Mos Def and i replied to that.... this isn't a word that's normally in my every day vocabulairy. I like to adress them as humans.

btw i'm not angry at you it's just this bloody frustation.....

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All good homes, I don't feel any anger around here :)

I totally agree with all that, well said.

And when we're going to organize this aren't the people whom we're talking to listing to us then just like the way that they are listing now to the "laws"? And aren't we creating excactly the same thing?

Well no the answer is in your own text :)

Like in the town i'm living i did a lot of voluntery work mostly with the youth of this town. I like the idea to do stuff for people....

It's a local thing. There is no leadership, just you working with your neighbours, and them with theirs, and so on. An organisation fighting for power just makes for civil war. An individual fighting for power just makes for a scary guy. All people together, deciding for themselves to take power over only themselves; that makes for freedom.

Then we can all move to the artistic district and crank our drums up to 11 :D

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king monkey wonders if anyone else would rather hear about ebay sellers than this bs...

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king monkey wonders if anyone else would rather hear about ebay sellers than this bs...

LOL! Well said.

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