encoder question

[rick.repsher]

On the uCApps site, it states that "rotary encoders which are not mechanically detented should be prefered for MIDIbox64e."

Contrary to this, it seems that all the encoder documentation I see on the site is about detented encoders, that may be modified to remove the detents. 

I spent many years working in an R&D "lab" on prototype equipment.  It doesn't seem like just removing the detent solves anything.  If the resolution is 24 pulses per rotation... then that is what it is, detents or not.

What am I missing?

Thanks

Rick

[nILS]

The point ;-)

Removing the detents is not about increasing the resolution but removing the "steppy" feel of the encoders, which makes sweeps a lot easier for instance.

[TK.]

I guess that you assumed that removing the detent would already increase the resolution. This of course won't help - there are also some software changes required.

Maybe this illustration helps to understand the approach:

If you remove the mechanical detent, you will remove the "click" shown in these waveforms, so that all transitions of the quadrature code can be used to determine, if the encoder is turned clockwise or anti-clockwise. Considered, that the SW scans the encoder fast enough, it is possible to quadruple the resolution of a "DETENTED2" type encoder

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[rick.repsher]

So, by the looks of your diagram, the pulses are there to start with... but with the detent, you are "seeing" 4 events as 1.

Does that make sense?

RR

[Gioxannes]

Sorry for interfering. But...

You can not stop turning halfway a click. So every click gives as a result 4 or 2 times an inc/dec.

The resolution therefore is the same as inc/dec-ing with times 4 or 2 on a single click.

The advantage of the above approach is that it goes more smooth, even if it is very fast.

Is that right?

[TK.]

So, by the looks of your diagram, the pulses are there to start with... but with the detent, you are "seeing" 4 events as 1.

Does that make sense?

The software sees 4 events, but due to the detent it should only increment one time for 4 transitions.

There is of course an optional "progression" algorithm in MIOS, which increments with higher values if the encoder is turned faster. But for slow moves it has to increment a single step per detent, otherwise you would miss some values when finetuning a parameter.

You can not stop turning halfway a click. So every click gives as a result 4 or 2 times an inc/dec.

Which are interpreted as a single Inc/Dec if a detented encoder type is selected in your MIOS setup - yes.

The resolution therefore is the same as inc/dec-ing with times 4 or 2 on a single click.

Yes - which is optionally done if the encoder is turned faster (depending on the "speed parameter" you could even see more inc/decs

The advantage of the above approach is that it goes more smooth, even if it is very fast.

Is that right?

No, the advantage is, that with a non-detented encoders you can stop turning "in the middle" of 4 Inc/Dec events, which are normaly required for a single "click". Accordingly, you will get a higher resolution if the encoder is turned slowly.

Another advantage is, that you will get a less steppy feel if the encoder is turned fast.

On the other hand: detents are great if you want to control low-resolution values, because they give you a more precisely feel. Therefore I recomment detented encoders for MBSEQ (where you want to enter note values precisely), and for the datawheel of MBSID (not for the remaining encoders, as you want to tweak CutOff (as an example) quickly).

It makes sense to try a detented encoder first - and if you don't like the feel (and the noise when turning the encoder), just remove the detents... or buy some non-detented encoders later.

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[SilverZero]

So, I'd like to elicit some closure to this conversation. (Kind of a true/false prompt here.)

Detented encoders pose a mechanical limit to the resolution, because one "click" of an encoder may actually run through four events.

Non-detented encoders will feel smoother, like a pot, and will offer un-encumbered resolution down to the level supported by the software.

There is a software "fix" to either decrease the resolution to compensate for detented action or to allow progressive "acceleration" for faster sweeps. Or both.

There is no requirement that one use either detented or non-detented encoders - it is ultimately a matter of personal preference and your own requirements (higher resolution, quicker sweeps, tactile feedback/feel, etc.).

And in the end, with the right software tweaks, all of the limitations of a detented encoder can be removed. But you can't add tactile feedback (clicks) to a non-detented encoder.

True or false? :)

[TK.]

Almost true :)

I added your nice explanation to the Wiki: http://www.midibox.org/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=encoders

Only one paragraph has been changed:

There is a software "fix" to either decrease the resolution to compensate for detented action or to allow progressive "acceleration" for faster sweeps. Or both.

Changed to:

There are different encoder modes to decrease the resolution to compensate for detented action. There is a software enhancement to allow progressive “acceleration” for faster sweeps.

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[SilverZero]

I added your nice explanation to the Wiki: http://www.midibox.org/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=encoders

Whoa, I'm honored!

[grepo]

Perfect! this really helped me.