My midification of my 70's Baldwin 210

[tonyn]

Sheu...

I just finished wiring up the Solo board, and have a bunch of pictures for you!

As you can see I mounted the power terminal and fuse holder to the metal part for security.

Then I cut the lengths of ribbon cable for the longest length to the last point per din and cable.

Instead of making all of my cables the same length, I then cut 5/8 inch off of each wire length from pin1 to pin 8.

This allowed nice runs.

The last 2 wires of the cables are no conection(white), and the ground(black).

Knowing me, I didn't want any loose ends, so I soldered the ends of those together.

I then soldered them to the ground buss on the contact boards.

I continued from right to left.

I was able to reuse ALL of the IDC cables I used without any waste from my push button board too!

I was able to use those ribbon cables for the short lengths, and also made duplicate lengths for my Accompanment board.

I moved from right(core board) to left(last din) only removing the plexiglass to get at the soldering for each set of boards.

Then after putting the board back, I adjusted the contact wires in the tabs

(a bit tricky, since those wires are like springs and have

a tendacy to go to the right of that tab,

so you need to carefully bring them around and put them into the slots).

They are like spring steal so they stay in place and spring back.

I then secured the rear screws on the bottom with lock washers and nuts.

Then I used another terminal strip to connect the unused 3 left over inputs,

and the last white and black wires from the second din

(so I can get off board ground for those unused contacts).

I can now securely run those off board to maybe some pistons.

If I add second touch and 2 more dins I will have 6 spare inputs to use for pistons.

Then I ran a ground wire from the ground on the terminal

to the front of the contact circuit board ground busses,

and also connected it to the metal to ground it all.

This ground wire was all one piece too(I stripped it in the middle).

Now I will mount this in my organ and power it up and see what I have.

I will need to redo my midibox file, but now it will be nice and neat and orderly.

The only problems I anticipate maybe the contacts not making good contact.

But that only requires adjusting the copper wire.

I know this type of thing works,

since a Baldwin tech had replaced the rubber in a few boards with insulated 16 gauge?,

wire.

That insulation added the same kind of resistance as the rubber strips.

I may need to go up to 16 gauge or move where I have it to the center more.

I was able to get all of the #6 nuts onto the dins and core.

I just used a smaller wrench.

Everything is secured with lock washers too.

Here's the pictures...

Edited December 29, 2009 by tonyn

[tonyn]

Yes my organ has percussion.

I did find a few contact boards to have 16 gauge wires installed.

But they were black, so I thought they were insulated.

Some contact boards also had some carbon on the wires, etc.

That may have come from high voltage with the old electronics.

So I only used contact boards that had nice shinny wire, etc.

But those boards with the wire already inserted may have been OK to use.

They may have been for the percusion on my organ too.

I only pulled out one board to test it to see what I had.

So I didn't find those 16 gauge wire boards until I had already had my plans for the copper wire,

and got to them(they were buried).

By then it was too late anyway, for me.

But my wire I have experience with now and maybe able to , by moving it, get 2 areas of a keypress to make contact, etc.

The copper wire route seemed to be my only option.

If you didn't have any rubber nor wire inserted those contacts may not make contact.

Those metal busses are on a 45 degree angle, and with the rubber removed the contact spring wires can't touch the metal.

So that was why I had to fill in that space with something conductive.

Yours maybe bit different.

But this is what I found with mine.

Yes, I maybe farther along because I have been at it night and day for the last weeks!

But I am going back to school soon and want to get as far as I can before I am heavily in study.

I am chugging away at it daily.

You can maybe just read my thread to see how I aproach other parts so you can get an idea before you atempt it with your organ too.

This thread will grow to cover every bit of this from start to a completely midified organ.

I also will be doign some carpentry work to repair the cabinet.

so a bit of everything!

Next on the agenda is the pedal board and swell pedal.

I wonder what I'll find there?

I hope you enjoy my long thread.

I am trying to provide plenty of pictures so if people have simular organs they can see how it can be done.

I am passing along a few tricks I have learned over the years for the unexperienced, so they know how to do it.

I am also sharing my thoughts and trials and errors, to help others to avoid them.

Feel free to share what you found with your organ too if you want.

How far are you, and why are you too late?

Hey, Tony, I think I found this thread too late, but I wanted to ask you if your organ had percussion.

The reason I ask is that I own a Baldwin 214DR that has similar key contacts to yours. Wherever the contacts control stops, there is an elastomer pad with resistance.

But, for the percussion controls, there is a silver rail that the wire touches. On my organ, there are two silver rails, the top one and the one beneath it. Beneath those are the elastomers.

If there is the silver rail, there is no need to strip out the elastomer and put in a new wire. Just use the silver rail--it has zero resistance.

On mine, I didn't even have to remove the contact boards. I just bypassed the resistors and used the existing wiring (it's color-coded by note for each octave).

You are farther along than I am, but I thought I'd try to bring this up in case other people are working on Baldwins.

Edited December 28, 2009 by tonyn

[tonyn]

It works beautifully!

I didn't have to adjust ANYTHING!

The feel is fantastic too, just what I wanted!

The keys play notes at just about the bottom of the keypress(tested in midi-ox output monitor)

Or so it seems.

I'll do better tests later.

But hopefully this could be second touch

(which the placement of my copper wire would be for the sets of contacts that are active now)

But working on first and second touch is for much later...

I need specs on first and second touch.

Anyone?

So soft, no stiffness at all(perfect in fact)!

Every key that does not have a broken tab

(the broken tabs are removed so that there are no shorts, etc.)

plays even in Jorgan!

Except they are out of place.

I need to remap the keys in midibox.

But they are all in good physical order now too(i.e. pin 1 on din 1 is key 1, etc.) for neat organized code!

I didn't finish putting the old cover, etc., on the Solo board,

just in case I had to remove it to adjust something, etc.

But since I made sure everything would fit within the demensions of the old area,

I should be able to enclose it easily with the old covers, etc.

Now to finish the Accompanment.

Edited December 28, 2009 by tonyn

[tonyn]

Here's my reconfigured MIDI_OUT part of midibox128.ini file.

It has been compiled and uploaded to the core and now the keyboard

is completely playable in Miditzer and Jorgan!

As you can now see the mapping is in order from the lowest C to the highest C!

[MIDI_OUT]

##########################################

# This is J3 on Din #1 #

# Pin # On Evnt # Off Evnt # Behaviour #

##########################################

1 = 90 24 7F 90 24 00 @OnOff

2 = 90 25 7F 90 25 00 @OnOff

3 = 90 26 7F 90 26 00 @OnOff

4 = 90 27 7F 90 27 00 @OnOff

5 = 90 28 7F 90 28 00 @OnOff

6 = 90 29 7F 90 29 00 @OnOff

7 = 90 2A 7F 90 2A 00 @OnOff

8 = 90 2B 7F 90 2B 00 @OnOff

##########################################

# This is J4 on Din #1 #

# Pin # On Evnt # Off Evnt # Behaviour #

##########################################

9 = 90 2C 7F 90 2C 00 @OnOff

10 = 90 2D 7F 90 2D 00 @OnOff

11 = 90 2E 7F 90 2E 00 @OnOff

12 = 90 2F 7F 90 2F 00 @OnOff

13 = 90 30 7F 90 30 00 @OnOff

14 = 90 31 7F 90 31 00 @OnOff

15 = 90 32 7F 90 32 00 @OnOff

16 = 90 33 7F 90 33 00 @OnOff

##########################################

# This is J5 on Din #1 #

# Pin # On Evnt # Off Evnt # Behaviour #

##########################################

17 = 90 34 7F 90 34 00 @OnOff

18 = 90 35 7F 90 35 00 @OnOff

19 = 90 36 7F 90 36 00 @OnOff

20 = 90 37 7F 90 37 00 @OnOff

21 = 90 38 7F 90 38 00 @OnOff

22 = 90 39 7F 90 39 00 @OnOff

23 = 90 3A 7F 90 3A 00 @OnOff

24 = 90 3B 7F 90 3B 00 @OnOff

##########################################

# This is J6 on Din #1 #

# Pin # On Evnt # Off Evnt # Behaviour #

##########################################

25 = 90 3C 7F 90 3C 00 @OnOff

26 = 90 3D 7F 90 3D 00 @OnOff

27 = 90 3E 7F 90 3E 00 @OnOff

28 = 90 3F 7F 90 3F 00 @OnOff

29 = 90 40 7F 90 40 00 @OnOff

30 = 90 41 7F 90 41 00 @OnOff

31 = 90 42 7F 90 42 00 @OnOff

32 = 90 43 7F 90 43 00 @OnOff

##########################################

# This is J3 on Din #2 #

# Pin # On Evnt # Off Evnt # Behaviour #

##########################################

33 = 90 44 7F 90 44 00 @OnOff

34 = 90 45 7F 90 45 00 @OnOff

35 = 90 46 7F 90 46 00 @OnOff

36 = 90 47 7F 90 47 00 @OnOff

37 = 90 48 7F 90 48 00 @OnOff

38 = 90 49 7F 90 49 00 @OnOff

39 = 90 4A 7F 90 4A 00 @OnOff

40 = 90 4B 7F 90 4B 00 @OnOff

##########################################

# This is J4 on Din #2 #

# Pin # On Evnt # Off Evnt # Behaviour #

##########################################

41 = 90 4C 7F 90 4C 00 @OnOff

42 = 90 4D 7F 90 4D 00 @OnOff

43 = 90 4E 7F 90 4E 00 @OnOff

44 = 90 4F 7F 90 4F 00 @OnOff

45 = 90 50 7F 90 50 00 @OnOff

46 = 90 51 7F 90 51 00 @OnOff

47 = 90 52 7F 90 52 00 @OnOff

48 = 90 53 7F 90 53 00 @OnOff

##########################################

# This is J5 on Din #2 #

# Pin # On Evnt # Off Evnt # Behaviour #

##########################################

49 = 90 54 7F 90 54 00 @OnOff

50 = 90 55 7F 90 55 00 @OnOff

51 = 90 56 7F 90 56 00 @OnOff

52 = 90 57 7F 90 57 00 @OnOff

53 = 90 58 7F 90 58 00 @OnOff

54 = 90 59 7F 90 59 00 @OnOff

55 = 90 5A 7F 90 5A 00 @OnOff

56 = 90 5B 7F 90 5B 00 @OnOff

##########################################

# This is J6 on Din #2 #

# Pin # On Evnt # Off Evnt # Behaviour #

##########################################

57 = 90 5C 7F 90 5C 00 @OnOff

58 = 90 5D 7F 90 5D 00 @OnOff

59 = 90 5E 7F 90 5E 00 @OnOff

60 = 90 5F 7F 90 5F 00 @OnOff

61 = 90 60 7F 90 60 00 @OnOff

# these are the last 3 non used inputs, #

# so they are mapped to the highest C, #

# for now. They can be pistons too #

62 = 90 60 7F 90 60 00 @OnOff

63 = 90 60 7F 90 60 00 @OnOff

64 = 90 60 7F 90 60 00 @OnOff

Edited December 29, 2009 by tonyn

[tonyn]

I am just about done with the keyboards guys(until I figure out second touch, much later)!

The Accompanment is about the same as the Solo, so it should work fine too.

Note: Plexiglass is brittle and can easily crack or fracture under too much preasure.

I already knew this, so where I had metal to plexiglass(nuts, lock washrs, etc.), I did not tighten too tight.

You have to have a feel for this to get it tight enough but not too tight.

I also did not tighten too tight on the circuit boards either since they also can crack, etc.

This comes with experience.

I have years of it and know about how tight to tighten things.

There is also the stress factor:

Years of something being a bit too tight will eventually cause problems.

This gos for wires, etc.

So leave some play.

But I am not done yet guys!

This thread will grow to huge by the time I am done.

I will cover every detail from start to a completely modernized midified computerized organ!

I even have some carpentry work to do too.

You will see me aproach EVERYTHING as I go.

Next on the agenda is the pedal board and swell pedal.

I wonder what I will find there? :blink:

Don't forget the rest of my thread too.

Go back and you may find some interesting thoughts,

and trails and errors, that may help you in your thought processes and projects too.

Edited December 28, 2009 by tonyn

[tonyn]

OOPS.

Somehow I got a double post.

Read my next post...

Edited December 29, 2009 by tonyn

[tonyn]

After RVbottomly posted about his Baldwin having silver contacts,

and that the percusion didn't have the resistive contact rubber:

I decided to check out my boards I found that had a 16 gauges wire installed.

I don't know wether it is copper or silver, or what.

But it does have a black coating on it.

I didn't find these boards until after I had initially found the rubberized boards

and came up with the idea of the 18 gauge copper wire.

It's nice to know that my thoughts were right on tract with what the Baldwin people thought of too.

Except they put the wire in the middle, and I put it on top.

But I am working on adding second touch,

so I wanted the farthest that the key can go to make contact for second touch.

The reasons that I wanted to get second touch first, was

that all of the initial adjustments to get the farthest keypress

makes for easy first touch to get a closer keypress by just inserting wires to the

bottom, or middle, of the boards I want for first touch,

wire up a second set of dins to them, and I am there.

My wire placement and gauge does work for the farthest keypress as you saw a couple of posts back.

Their wire is a little bit thicker than 18 gauge too(I assume 16 gauge, but haven't checked it out).

But these boards DO have zero resistance if you clean the wire.

Over the years or with high voltages, etc., these contacts on these board have like a carbon residue on them.

Or they may have been meant to be resistive and were coated.

I don't have the schematic on my organ, yet(I will get one though).

But by scrapping the wire a bit I got zero resistance.

As you can see this 16 gauge wire is in the middle.

Through my tests this would be middle keypress.

OK if you want only a one touch keyboard.

Plus you would need to clean these boards if yours is like mine for good contacts.

I just picked out the best boards with shinny wires and the rubber so I have good contacts,

and inserted my 18 gauge instead.

There are enough spare boards with the rubber that you can get the sets of 2, like I did, that match,

so that you can make one for first touch, and the second for second touch.

I still think that I went the right route,

since with the 18 gauge you can have one wire on top for second touch

and one either in the middle or bottom for first.

They could optionally be tinned so the copper doesn't corode over time.

The difference will be slight but can fit into the specs, maybe, of first and second touch.

I did read somewhere that the specs say first touch and second touch should be 1/8" in difference in keypress.

But is that from the top of the press or bottom?

Anyone have specs on that?

Anyway, here's a picture of a board that has a preinserted wire.

As you can see there is carbon on the wires that needs to be cleaned off if you want good contacts.

Edited December 29, 2009 by tonyn

[tonyn]

I did notice that a few of the keys on my Solo keyboard were not working where the tabs were good.

So I opened the organ and through investigating.

2 just had the contact springs in the wrong slots.

No biggy.

But 2 on the upper end had to have the key metal bent a bit so they could push the tab all of the way to make good contact.

So my wires are JUST right for second touch and make contact at the last part of the keypress.

This is the farthest reach of the keys when pressed, so second touch may need a bit of adjusting for.

I also found that just a nut in between the contact board mount and the metal of the organ is just right.

Even a washer more would be too much, espescially if you want the second touch as I am planning on.

This is #8 hardware for the mounting of the contact boards to the organ metal.

Now to get back to my organ guy for those broken tab replacements.

Plus I need to finish up my Accompanment board too.

Edited December 29, 2009 by tonyn

[tonyn]

For those of you whom are following me and want to copy me with your Baldwin 210, etc., that is the same:

If you are wondering how I got perfect hole alignments for my plexiglass boards:

Don't forget you have spare contact circuit boards to use as templates!

2 are wider and the other 8 are smaller.

Take a same size contact board, align the plexiglass piece of the same size with the buss metal

of the contact board(my plexiglass pieces go just to the metal of the buss of the contact boards),

and tape it on top of one of the pelxiglass pieces,

put a marker through the holes to mark where the holes go onto the plexiglass.

Take a small drill bit (plexiglass is slippery, so you can do it better with a pilot hole first)

I used a small bit with my dremel tool.

Drill a pilot hole, and then a drill bit for # 6 through holes

(the screws that go through them are 4mm,

but the #6 trough hole bit allows for a bit of play, which you want)

I don't know what the size of the #6 through hole bit is, but your handy hardware guys does.

Then use that piece of plexiglass as a template for the rest.

Don't try to drill all of the same plexiglass boards at once, else you may have off holes

(it's the thickness of them altogether, that unless you have a drill press,

and can get it perfectly streight, the holes will be off).

Use the plexiglass templates and tape one plexiglass piece at a time to it.

Drill slowly, with little pressure, else you will crack the plexiglass.

Now how to align the holes for the dins and core:

Mount all of the plexiglass boards onto your contact board.

Align the dins and core where you want them,

use the marker again(I used bare boards to get them flat on the plexiglass, I had spares to do this with).

Mark your holes and also what board gos where(i.e. Solo board 1,2, etc.).

This is so you can put them back where they go.

I did each board(Solo and Acompanment), separately, so the holes maybe different for each.

By having the boards marked, you will know what gos where when you reassemble them.

You can drill the small pilot holes while mounted

(be careful to not drill through the contact boards under them though).

But DO NOT DRILL THE BIGGER HOLES WITH THEM MOUNTED, ELSE YOU MAY DAMAGE THEM.

Remove them and drill the bigger holes with the same #6 through hole bit(see it works for both,

the screws for the dins and core are #6).

Using these tricks I had all of my plexiglass perfect in no time, without a drill press!.

I only had one cracked hole because I didn't think to start and pressed too hard while drilling.

But everything else turned out perfect, as you saw.

If you have any questions on how I did something, feel free to ask.

But read my whole thread first,

since there is a lot of info in it that I may have already answered.

Edited December 29, 2009 by tonyn

[tonyn]

Good new guys!

My organ guy has ALL of the tabs I need except 3 from the Solo!

But those I can see about repairing, or he can check into orderin them from Baldwin.

He is giving them to me free, since I did some comptuer work for him.

I just need to pick them up.

This will give me all keys except 3 on the upper end of the Solo.

I also got my order for my spare optocoupler ICs in today and will be picking them up too.

[tonyn]

Just got back from my organ guy.

He had ALL of the tabs I needed except the 6 layer one for the Solo.

But he gave me a few extra longer ones and after we looked at them,

I can use a dremel tool to cut a long one down to make a shorter one.

While I was there we talked about how my organ was designed, etc.

Yes, those contact boards with the preinstalled wires were for the percusion and had high voltage to them.

The pedal boards have the same type of contact boards, etc.

So that should be easy to do the same design with them.

Except that I do not want the Dins and core down under the organ,

so I will run wires up from the contact boards to where I will mount the dins and core.

But, since the contact baords are the same, according to him,

that means I could also do second touch for the pedals too!

So I'll need to plan on another din!

My midified Baldwin will have features that were not in the origional!

He also said that the motor controller design of the leslie for my Baldwin was the good design!

There are 2 motor controllers and 2 motors.

One for slow speed and the second for fast.

These are controlled by 1 stop(a 3rd stop turns the leslie motors on/off)

So I now know what I need to control them.

He will get me the schematic too so I can put back those motor speed control drivers.

I also stopped by that organ store that had that Modernized lowery organ that inspried me to do this.

That organ sells for $35,000!

It has more stops and fuctions than you can count!

It also has 16 speakers!

At least that is what he said.

I can't imagine how they cramed and why that many speakers in.

It has a nice wrap around cherry console, but only 2 keyboards(I don't peticularly like the lowery keys,

mine are sharp, their's are square), and a 25 pedal pedal board(short pedals, mine are full sized).

That organ was origionally in the Pabst Theater.

He said they are thinking of buying it back, unless someone else buys it first.

Not me, that is too much!

I am only looking at it for ideas.

It has all push button type stop tabs with LEDs, that is what I need/want.

My organ guy knows and will be looking at what he can get for me.

He said I could buy them new too, but they may add up like my push buttons(122 for $130).

I expect the stop types to be a lot more new!

But they are also etched with the names of the instruments, etc.

So I may have to order what I want, new.

But I won't have the money for that part until Febuary anyway.

Plus my organ guy will be looking for them too for me.

He gets trades and parts from older organs in all of the time.

He said who knows what he may have by Febuary.

Who knows I may also design my own too!

I already have 122 push buttons.

All I need to do is design nice colored acrylic covers and put LEDs behind them.

Damn!

That's what I'll do!

This way I can customize the stop tabs to replace, exactly,

the old stop tabs and even use the old stop board!

I found where they put the DVD drive and front panel card reader/USB,

so that is where I will put those on my organ too.

But it only has a 4x5 inch touch screen.

I have a 15 inch!

But I need to figure out how to mount mine so it is out of the way, but can move to where you want it.

Right now it's on a cheap arm.

Later I will get a better arm, etc.

I also have to figure out where to put my keyboard and mouse,

so they are out of the way, but accessable when needed.

My computer power supply and guts will be mounted in the top part of the organ.

I have ideas on where to put them too.

Here is something that I also figured out:

Powering off the computer from the main of the organ power switch?

You DO NOT WANT TO JUST TURN OFF YOU COMPUTER, ESPESCIALLY IF IT'S RUNNING WINDOWS.

Simple:

I will install a UPS battery backup power strip

(actually I will gut one I have and use the circuit board and battery,

and wire up my own outlets, etc.) in the organ for the computer and electronics.

This power strip will be powered on/off by the organ's main power switch.

The UPS will have a plug as most do,

that the computer can detect loss of power to the UPS with, and properly shut down the computer.

Wahla! One power switch controls all!

Plus a UPS is good to use even if you do not use the battery backup part,

since it conditions line voltage too for sensitive electronics.

The UPS strip will also be mounted inside of the organ.

This is why it is important to me to design the midi circuits to not take up any additional organ space.

I will need all I can use for this stuff too.

Edited December 29, 2009 by tonyn

[tonyn]

OK.

I just replaced the top 4 tabs of the Solo keyboard.

So now all keys play except for the lowest C, which needs a tab that I will dremel out for it.

I was able to replace those tabs without removing the Solo board from the organ.

It was tricky though and I had to remove the nuts and lock washers to lift it up slightly to insert from the bottom.

The Accompanment I will do outside of the organ where I am working on it anyway wiring up the dins.

A few tricks on these tabs you may want to know:

Be careful of the top notch where the leaf spring gos into.

If you remove or insert it wrong you can break the top notch.

You tilt the leaf spring into the notch on one side and lower or lift it from the other.

Also the rubber gromets need to be worked down the tab.

Be careful with those too since over the years the rubber can dry out and they may tear.

I had no problems, just wanted to pass this along.

Here's a close-up picture of a tab and rubber gromet so you can see what I am talking about.

The 2 bottom notches are for the gromets.

The bottom one stops the tab from going up too far, and is inserted first.

Then the tab gos into the the board, and the second from the bottom notch

is for the second gromet which you work down the tab being careful on the notched side.

On top is a trangular notch for the leaf spring.

The other notches are for the contact spring wires.

I use the bottom 2.

Edited December 29, 2009 by tonyn

[tonyn]

I just thought of a neat idea!

Since I am going to make my own stop tabs with colored acrylic;

to name the stop tabs without etching or putting a label on them:

I could put tiny LCDs behind them that are programable!

Then LEDs behind them to light them up.

When I was at American Science and Surplus there were a ton of tiny LCDs in a bin!

I would run them off of a separate microcontroller board.

I do have some microcontroller baords to play with for this.

They have a USB interface to program them.

So I could write programs to change the names on the fly of the stop tabs and different instruments, etc.

Neat eh? I'll prototype this out to see how it would work first.

This way on the comptuer with custom programs:

Change virtual organ console, it will upload a new program to the microcontroller which changes the names of the stops accordingly!

I'll be taking advanced Java programming this next semester,

so this is something I can work on in Java too to integrate with Jorgan, etc.

Acually instead of uploading new code to a microcontroller,

I could have push buttons that the controller detects to change routines in code to change names, etc.

There could be a scroll up and a scroll down buttons to scroll more stop tabs than physically installed!

But that would also require and update to midibox too, etc.

Or do I hear "core 32 calling"?

Well I'll play with this after I finish the pedal board and swell.

Just ideas...

I need to start thinking out the stop tabs, since tonight I will finish the Accompanment,

and basically have the keyboards all done(until I add first touch, second is first right now, but this will be much later).

Within the next couple of weeks I should have the pedal board and swell done.

Then it's onto the stops and pistons(the pistons are easy)!

Edited December 30, 2009 by tonyn

[RVBottomly]

But hopefully this could be second touch

(which the placement of my copper wire would be for the sets of contacts that are active now)

But working on first and second touch is for much later...

I need specs on first and second touch.

Anyone?

Tony, I notice you are flying through the keyboards and talking about second touch. I don't have any specs, but I do know that second touch usually requires an extra spring beneath the keys to provide a tactile resistance point.

The idea is that normal playing with normal pressure will push the key down to a first stopping point. Second touch requires extra pressure to push beyond that point to activate the second touch contacts.

You might want to keep this in mind as you progress. Without the extra spring (or some other form of resistance--maybe padding of some kind), it will be too easy to hit the second touch notes inadvertently.

Edited December 30, 2009 by RVBottomly

[tonyn]

Sheu..

I finished wiring up the Accompanment baord last night as planned.

It isn't hard, just tedious and takes time.

Before I put the ICs in I electrically tested the Power adaptor, the dins, and core for voltages, etc.

I tested these because I hadn't.

for the Solo I did no electrical tests since the dins core and power adpator were already tested for the push button board.

Then inserted the ICs, installed in organ, connected to computer and it worked.

So I setup midibox128, reconfigured for channel 2 for this keyboard.

But I had no keypresses!

I tested for continuity with the contacts, etc.

Then I decided to check out each din to the core.

So I made a long IDC cable for testing.

Connected from core to second din.

Wahla I had keypresses.

Connected from core to first din and the same.

Put cable between dins back and used test cable from core to first din and everythign worked.

My IDC cable from the core to the first din was bad.

I also foudn that on this baord I did not have to move the cable between the dins to the right

(I wanted to figure that one out).

So the Solo baord's cable between the disn is bad, now I knwo.

It's a good thing I have spare IDC connectors and enough cable.

Now I need to adjust a few of the key hammers some and add some felt pieces to the ones that they came off of.

Those felt pieces quiet the hammers when they hit the tabs, and also keep them from slipping off of the tabs.

So it's important to have them all on.

I think I'll try contact cemment to reattach them.

[tonyn]

Ahh OK.

Thanks.

Well at least I should be able to get second touch with the contacts.

Just to think out how to add the tactle feel to it.

Even if I can't get a tacle feel from it it still could be used for something?

I have seen portable keyboards with a second set of contacts, but no tactle.

Yes I just finished the Accompanment.

All I need to do is some adjustments, merge the keyboards , and wrap up the keyboards!

Then it's on to the pedal board and swell...

Tony, I notice you are flying through the keyboards and talking about second touch. I don't have any specs, but I do know that second touch usually requires an extra spring beneath the keys to provide a tactile resistance point.

The idea is that normal playing with normal pressure will push the key down to a first stopping point. Second touch requires extra pressure to push beyond that point to activate the second touch contacts.

You might want to keep this in mind as you progress. Without the extra spring (or some other form of resistance--maybe padding of some kind), it will be too easy to hit the second touch notes inadvertently.

[tonyn]

I finally have 2 fully midified and fully functional keyboards!

I finished my adjustments and all keys work fine now

(except for the lowest C on the Solo, which I will fix tomarrow).

Both cores are daisy chained and midimerge enabled in midibox128!

The input to the computer comes from the Accompanment.

The output of the computer gos to the Solo.

When I add the stop core to the chain(it will be first in the chain),

the output of the computer will go to it.

When I add the pedal board and swell core(last in chain),

the input to computer will connect to it.

This way the stop core with the Douts will get the inputs from the computer to change stops, etc.

Now all I need to do is make that tab for the Solo, make a shorter midi cable

(right now I am using a 5 foot one, all I need is about 1 foot,

which I will cut from the 5 foot and add a connector to) between the keyboards,

and put the dust covers(everything should fit inside of the old dust covers too)

on the contact boards, and I am done with the keyboards!

Oh, and make a new IDC cable for between the dins of the Solo.

I won't work on first and second touch features until I am completely done with the organ.

To me it's an optional feature that can be added later, if I want it.

But I have it ready for it.

The area in back of the organ behind the contact boards, where there were some old organ circuit boards,

is the ideal area for me to install the core and dins for the pedal board and swell.

Plus there is a hole near it to route the wires down to the pedal board.

See by keeping my keyboard midi circuits within the old keyboard contact board areas,

I now have this other organ space for the pedal board circuits!

Plus all din core ciruits for the keybaords and pedal board

will be close to each other to easily have short midi cables to chain them together, etc.

That way all of the core circuits and electronics are in the top part of the organ,

and are all easily accessable for repair, etc.

To the sides of the keyboards in the top parts of the organ can go power strips, computer power supply, etc.

The computer motherboard can be mounted up in the top part where the stops are, and will be shielded too.

There is space in the speaker area above them amp for the computer, but that area is near the speakers,

etc., so I don't want it there.

Damn!

A few keys on the Accompanment are a still bit stiff!

I went through all of the keys and bent the soft metal of the key hammers ,

to adjust them just right.

Guess I'll have to do it again.

It doesn't take much to make them too stiff or not make contact(it's a fine bend adjustment).

Or put them out of alignment with the tabs.

That's why there are organ techs!

You may also find this with old organs that keys have been broke, or whatever.

This is why I guess they make that metal soft, so it can be adjusted.

Not now though, I am exhausted from getting the accompanment done.

The keyboard is still playable,

just have to tell my son not to pound on the stiff keys for now(they could break the tabs).

I don't want to have to replace them anytime soon.

I was lucky my organ guy had just enough for me.

The Solo was easier to adjust since I could lift up the keyboard and adjust it until it was right.

The Accompanment can't be lifted.

So I have to note each key that needs to be bent up, down,

pull off the contact board, bend the metal, and hope it is right.

Then put the contact board back, and repeat until right.

Edited December 31, 2009 by tonyn

[RVBottomly]

Ahh OK.

Thanks.

Well at least I should be able to get second touch with the contacts.

Just to think out how to add the tactle feel to it.

Even if I can't get a tacle feel from it it still could be used for something?

I have seen portable keyboards with a second set of contacts, but no tactle.

Maybe you are thinking about "velocity?" Most piano-type keyboards have some way of measuring how fast the keys are depressed to regulate the loudness of the sound played. This mimics a standard piano: the faster and harder the key is played, the louder the note.

This is different from second touch on a theatre organ. Velocity is fine for keyboard playing, especially if you want the response to be like a piano, but is not typical for an organ. Second touch is for activating a different set of stops when you push harder on the keys.

From Wiki:

Touch sensitivity (also found under the keyword velocity in some manuals): While the least expensive keyboards are simply "on-off" switches, mid-range and higher-range instruments simulate the process of sound generation in chordophones (string instruments) which are sensitive to the pressure of a key press. For implementation, two sensors are installed for each key: the first sensor detects when a key is beginning to be pressed and the other triggers when the key is pressed completely. The time between the two signals allows a keyboard to determine the velocity with which the key was struck. As the key weight is constant this velocity can be considered as the strength of the press. Based on this value the sound generator produces a correspondingly loud or soft sound.

Electronic keyboard

Edited December 30, 2009 by RVBottomly

[tonyn]

Great!

Thanks.

I can live with that if I can't do second touch.

Then what I can have is velocity!

That is good enough for me!

I'll just forget second touch, but do velocity!

But that will be added after I have everything else done.

An optional added feature..

You know what?

That lowery organ I was looking at had these touch bars under the keyboards.

I'll bet that could act like second touch by resting your palm on them?

I didn't go into detail with that guy about that organ, since I wasn't spending any money there.

So I didn't sit down to play it or anything, just looked at it, and thought of an airplane cockpit!

But I'll bet...

Maybe you are thinking about "velocity?" Most piano-type keyboards have some way of measuring how fast the keys are depressed to regulate the loudness of the sound played. This mimics a standard piano: the faster and harder the key is played, the louder the note.

This is different from second touch on a theatre organ. Velocity is fine for keyboard playing, especially if you want the response to be like a piano, but is not typical for an organ. Second touch is for activating a different set of stops when you push harder on the keys.

From Wiki:

Electronic keyboard

Edited December 31, 2009 by tonyn

[tonyn]

Now I think I know why I found so many tabs broken on the Accompanment.

Over the years of playing chords, etc., some keys may have bent.

They may have been adjusted by an organ tuner when my Dad owned the organ.

He kept good care of it.

Plus some 35-40 years ago he bought it used, so it may have had been worked on several time by techs.

There may have been broken tabs while I played it and didn't notice them,

until this midification and tearing them apart to find that.

The broken tabs may have been caused by the hammers going up too far, thus putting too much preasure on the tabs.

I found that the Accompanment keyboard didn't have all of the hammers perfect.

Some where higher than others.

I didn't tocuh the Accompanment when I was adjusting for my push button board

(I was working on the Solo first).

So the Accompanment was untouched by me.

I never had it looked at in the 25 years I have had it.

All I can remember was that some stop tab springs needed adjusting when it played.

Those I fixed myself.

But this is the first time I have played it in over 8 years!

I have had it in storage for the last 4 years, and before that it was in a room where I couldn't play it.

I almost forgot how to read sheet music.

I sat down last night to show my son how to play music from sheet music, and damn if I forgot the notes!

But 10 minutes later I had it.

So I'll need to pratice again at it, so I can teach my son how to play.

But it's like riding a bike.

I am not a musician, I just play for enjoyment.

I did take a ton of music lessons when I was a kid and attended the conservatory of music.

I learnt from some of the best on big 3-4 manual pipe organs, etc.

I used to be able to really play good using both feet on the pedal board, etc.

I remember my one organ teacher being meticulas on the foot work.

I just remember him saying "heel-toe, heel-toe". :)

A good organist has to balance themselves and use all fingers,

both feet on the pedalboard, and also try to turn sheet music and adjust the swell pedal,

change stops, etc..

It's not easy when you are playing some music that uses it all.

At one time I wanted to invent a page turner,

that by moving your knee, it turned the sheet music pages for you.

But I persued another career instead of music.

But this is no biggy, the keyboards play fine.

To an inexperienced organst you wouldn't notice.

But I do, so I want them perfect.

This is just a fine adjustment , to get them perfect again, that's all.

Right now I am going to dremel out a new tab for the Solo,

and wrap up the keyboard part so I can move on to the pedal board and swell.

Now to convince the wife to take the tree down so I put the pedal baord back in,

and can work down under.

I hope I can easily remove the contact board for the pedal board to work on it.

Edited December 31, 2009 by tonyn

[tonyn]

I am thinking ahead on how I am going to amplify the output of the computer.

My organ has 3 speakers, including the leslie.

I do still have the origional owner manual!

It's must be 40 years old but well perserved.

Anyway here is what it says:

Amplification system:

Fully transistorized, 105 watts of audio power(rms), amplified through three separate channels and is well contained.

The pedal channel consists of a 40 watt(rms) amplifier and a 15 inch heavy duty speaker.

The flute rotor channel has 40 watts(rms) and a 9x15 inch oval wide range speaker that rotates in a drum.

The reed string(and percusion) stationary channel have 25 watts(rms) with a 12 inch extended range speaker.

All of these divisions have spearate volume controls for the purpose

of setting just the right amount of volume on each division to suit the acoustical environment.

OK, so it looks like I have a good amp.

But to figure out how to get 3 channels of line input into it.

Of course on the computer end I have to figure out how to map the channels too,

to output to the correct organ speaker channels.

I have a feeling the inputs are directly from the tone electronics and come in parrel with many inputs and high voltage, etc.

I will have to group them to the output channels and probably add preamps.

Line input voltages, I think, are 1v peak to peak?

Plus I would most likely want to add optocouplers on the inputs to isolate that amp from the computer,

so it doesn't blow up the computer.

What would be the cheapest , but best, route to take.

Any ideas?

Don't tell me to design my own.

I can to a point but would like , if possible, to get kits, or schematics, etc.

, of someone that has done something simular to use.

I would also like to possibly add more speakers to have better range.

Smaller speakers for the highs and larger ones for the lows.

There is some space in the speaker area to add some smaller speakers.

But I don't think there is enough space for 16, like that lowery had! :)

But adding more speakers will also require cross over circuits for them(that part should be easy).

Edited December 31, 2009 by tonyn

[tonyn]

I am thinking...

Second touch tactle feel?

Springs under keys?

Well push buttons have springs,

and when I had my push button board installed there was a definate firmness when you hit a push button switch.

There is also room directly under the keys for push button switches.

So second touch could be done by installing switches directly under the keys!

But, I think if I were to do that I would want a different kind of push button switch,

so it just gives a click feel at the end of the keypress, and not move much.

I would want to go check out an organ with real second touch to get the feel for it first.

I most likely would want 1/8" at most of keypress at the end for it,

so second touch doesn't get activated until you definately push the keys all of the way down.

Right now my copper wire for the end of a keypress makes contact BEFORE hitting bottom of the keypress.

I get contact at about 1/8"-1/4" before the key hits bottom.

Which is good.

If I add the other set of contacts, with a copper wire inserted towards the middle,

they should make contact in the middle of the keypress.

So that can give me the velocity BEFORE the second touch.

Where would I put the core and dins for this?

Well there is an unused space on the front of the contact boards where the old organ had circuit boards!

My core and dins I mounted can be for velocity(already there just need to wire up 2 more dins),

AND second touch with another core and 2 dins on front of the contact board, and switches directly under the keys!

But right now, if I want, I CAN easily have velocity, which will be nice.

But I will need to see how to take advantage of it in software, etc.

If I don't have a real need for it, then why add it?

But I at least planned for it just in case..

Edited December 31, 2009 by tonyn

[jimhenry]

So second touch could be done by installing switches directly under the keys!

But, I think if I were to do that I would want a different kind of push button switch,

so it just gives a click feel at the end of the keypress, and not move much.

I would want to go check out an organ with real second touch to get the feel for it first.

I think what you are describing for the push button is a tactile switch. It won't give you the feel of a Wurlitzer second touch but I think it could be better. It's hard to describe the Wurlitzer second touch feel. I guess I'd say it is a short, barely 1/8", and heavy additional travel of the key. The critical factor is that the minimum force necessary to hold the key at the bottom of first touch is significantly less than the minimum force needed to start the movement of the key into second touch. There is a step in the force curve.

[tonyn]

I think what you are describing for the push button is a tactile switch. It won't give you the feel of a Wurlitzer second touch but I think it could be better. It's hard to describe the Wurlitzer second touch feel. I guess I'd say it is a short, barely 1/8", and heavy additional travel of the key. The critical factor is that the minimum force necessary to hold the key at the bottom of first touch is significantly less than the minimum force needed to start the movement of the key into second touch. There is a step in the force curve.

Thanks Jim for describing to me the real feel for it on the Wurlitzer.

I have never played on a second touch organ, so I don't have any idea as to what it is.

But when I saw it on the virtual organ I JUST HAD TO THINK ON HOW TO GET IT TOO.

I did read that it used 1/8" of space, and assumed it to be at the end of a keypress.

I inadvertingly have velocity(well available, but not implemented),

but it would be neat to have second touch too.

So it IS 1/8"?

Great, at least I got that part right.

But if it's a firm keypress I wouldn't like that part.

It must be hard to push, or maintain your key presses for second touch eh?

Yes, a tactle switch would be the way I would go.

It would let you feel that you have second touch, but not require a real heavy keypress to maintain it.

Well I can experiment with it now.

But how to try it out without destroying anything in the process?

That has been the biggest delema with me with this organ.

I don't want to drill holes or anything into the organ and make mistakes that I can't fix.

Maybe I should get a spare Baldwin keyboard(doesn't need all keys just a few to experiment with)

with a contact board to experiment with?

I have an excelent resource for parts from my organ guy.

He has all kinds of spare parts from all types of organs.

I am lucky I found him.

But, as I found out:

It's a trial and error.

At first when I first tried out a few push buttons for my push button idea, it felt OK.

So I decided to go ahead with it.

But it wasn't until I had it all done and tried to play it that I was unhappy with it.

A tactle switch in theary my seem better.

But maybe Wurlitzer's route maybe better at the end when you play.

Edited December 31, 2009 by tonyn

[tonyn]

Great!

I dremeled out a new tab for the lowest C of the Solo and it works perfectly!

Now ALL keys from both keyboards work.

I am just about done with the keyboards now,

just a couple more things and I'll be investigating the pedalboard next.

Here are some good close-up pictures to show you what I had to do.

I had to cut off a tab from a longer one, and make the top trianglar notch.

Not too hard.

I cut the end off with my cuttter disk.

Then I used a diamond glass bit to grind out the notch.

These tabs are made out of an epoxy type material,

like circuit boards, so they take a bit of grinding.

But if you are careful it is easy.

Edited December 31, 2009 by tonyn