Controller for Cubase

[technobreath]

Hello guys. Just to introduce myself; I used to be active in this forum many years ago, but had to give up my MB SID project because I got sick and had to more or less put my whole life on hold. I sold or traded off all the parts (SIDs, PICs, everything...) Well, I'm back now :)

Things and interests have changed since I last was here. I now spend most of the time as a musician in my (home)studio. Used to do gigs, but I haven't got the time anymore - housebuilding, knocked-up wife etc.

Lets see... at the time of writing this I am 27 years old, I have had electronics as one of my hobbies on and off for at least 15 years. I have never taken any electronics classes. All I know I have learned from my dad, school books and internet forums about electronics. I have built several electronic stuff over the years, but never designed any complicated cuircuts myself. I've played around with simulation program with more advanced electronics, but never built any advanced stuff. It's more like FM senders and stuff like that. I once built a high power PWM controller with >100A mosfets as a motor controller for some fans in my old car. I designed it myself, but it took a LOT of time, so I am no expert at all, but I understand a lot when explained, and I know the basics.

My original career plan was electronics engineer, cybernetics and stuff like that, but as I mentioned I had to put my life on hold. When I got back on tracks I felt like doing something that could make me some money sooner rather than later, and I took some classes to become a carpenter :). However I have never worked as one hehe. When school was finished I got an offer to start in the family business as a alarm / security technician. I have been there for the past 4 years, now working as a tech manager. I usually spend my days planning / designing complete security systems - CCTV, alarms, access systems, etc. Occationally I do some sailswork too.

OK, enough about me, sorry for such a long intro, but now you know my background. :) I will not write such long posts more :)

Now to the case:

I am going to build a MB for my homestudio to control the cubase mixer and transportbar. I understand a MB LC system would be perfect. I want to make it myself to fit my needs, and want to learn more about it, so that is why I thought of TK's projects once again.

I was imaging the following specs:

- Display showing transport location(bars) and tempo.

- Transport bar with buttons: Rec, Play, Fastforward, fastbackwards, goto-start, goto-end, stop and a jog wheel.

- One strip of EQ controls for cubase mixer to control all strips viritually - encoders or pots for 4 bands of eq and 4 sweeps plus buttons for activating the eq bands.

- 16 strips if possible. Fader + buttons: select channel, record, solo, mute, monitor

- One strip of FX controllers

- One strip of Insert controllers

- LCD display and menu buttons

This is what I imagined, but I am not sure if it's possible.

Can this be done or am I totally off the track here?

Any ideas on my specs list? What to add, what to take away?

Also another question - what is ledrings usually used for? I mean - I understand what they are, but what are they usually showing information about in such a controller? And what buttons would it be usefull to acompany with leds?

I also want to connect two relays to DOUTs to control different things such as record in progress sign outside the room etc.

I would also like the possibility to attach standard gooseneck lights to the desk.

If the specs can be realized, what modules do I need?

Thanks for any input :)

[technobreath]

I have begun getting together some parts for the project now.

Today at work I salvaged some used transformers used for alarm panels that were thrown away, I grabbed 4 of them. They are 230primary, 12volt secondary and 1,5 amps. My question is related to the powersupply schematics found in the documentation over the core modules both PIC and STM32.

- The schematics says 7-10 VAC input. Will the regulators become too hot if I feed it with the 12 volts or so that these transformers output?

- Should I use a 7809 before the other regulators to do the regulation in two steps? If not the regulator would be forced to eat up to 7-8 volt... Any thoughts?

- Is 1,5 amp enough? It says 500mA at the schematics, but can I drive a midibox LC with 16 motorfaders from this powersupply alone or do it need upgrades?

- Is there any way to calculate (or can someone tell me) how big surface the heatsink on the regulators should have to adapt to the conditions in my box? I also salvaged some pretty heatsinks from the alarm panels. If I should guess I would say they are 3mm thick, has a surface about 6 times the size of the regulator itself, and it has fins on all four corners. It is made for this purpose - I plucked them of 78xx regulators on the alarm boards, but are they big enough for this box?

- If regulators is to be too hot, what kind of regulation should I then use as alternative to 78xx?

All comments appreciated very much!

[findbuddha]

Can't help with the power supply stuff sorry.

As for MB LC:

For 16 channels you'll need 2x Core8 (PIC). A Core32 (STM32) implementation isn't doable, unless you can roll your own solution for touch sensors. (I've just ordered a Core32 and 2x Core8 for this purpose - expensive and I'll have to do a bit of coding).

As for all your buttons and encoders:

- You'll need to check what's actually supported by the Mackie/Logic Control protocol

- Each core module can handle up to 16x8 digital inputs and 16x8 digital outputs. Have a look at TK's interconnection diagrams on ucapps.de for an idea of how the LC is usually connected up.

[nILS]

Can this be done or am I totally off the track here?

Anything can be done. It's all a matter of how much money and time you're willing to spend.

Any ideas on my specs list? What to add, what to take away?

It'S kinda hard (and I am too lazy) to visualize the box. Draw us a nice little mockup - that'll make checking out your idea a lot easier.

Also another question - what is ledrings usually used for? I mean - I understand what they are, but what are they usually showing information about in such a controller?

Basically there's 2 scenarios for them:

1) Used with an encoder. Encoders don't have a pointer on the knob and no "status", so you use a LED ring to display where the encoder position is.

2) Used with a pot. When you bank the channels or load a different setup, your pots will remain where they where before, not necessarily showing the right values. A LED ring can help show where they should be or where the software thinks they are.

And what buttons would it be usefull to acompany with leds?

Mute, Solo, Record, maybe transport status.

If the specs can be realized, what modules do I need?

You'll have to count. Go to ucapps.de find out how many inputs/outputs you get per AIN/DIN/DOUT module. Count how many modules you'll need, find out how many cores you'll need to connect those modules to.

- The schematics says 7-10 VAC input. Will the regulators become too hot if I feed it with the 12 volts or so that these transformers output?

They will get hotter. If they'll get too hot depends on the current draw. More current draw = more heat.

- Should I use a 7809 before the other regulators to do the regulation in two steps? If not the regulator would be forced to eat up to 7-8 volt... Any thoughts?

That doesn't change anything. The generated heat will be split across two vregs, but the overall amount will be the same + a bit. Don't do that.

- Is 1,5 amp enough? It says 500mA at the schematics, but can I drive a midibox LC with 16 motorfaders from this powersupply alone or do it need upgrades?

1.5A should be okk for most boxes. Again it all depends on how many displays, faders, LEDs, ... you have.

[nILS]

- Is there any way to calculate (or can someone tell me) how big surface the heatsink on the regulators should have to adapt to the conditions in my box?

Rule of thumb is "make the heatsink as big as possible". You can calculate it though ;) Just take the voltage drop (Vin-Vout for instance 12V-5V = 7V), multiply that by the current (for instance 1.5A) and you'll get some number of Watts (10.5 in our example).

I also salvaged some pretty heatsinks from the alarm panels. If I should guess I would say they are 3mm thick, has a surface about 6 times the size of the regulator itself, and it has fins on all four corners. It is made for this purpose - I plucked them of 78xx regulators on the alarm boards, but are they big enough for this box?

Sounds good. If they'll do, well testing will tell.

- If regulators is to be too hot, what kind of regulation should I then use as alternative to 78xx?

A switchmode supply should work very well for you. A notebook or PC power supply might do the trick - they typically give you regulated 5V and 12V, so there's no extra heat generated by the vregs on the core module.

Also in keep in mind that the faders (if you wanna use motorized ones) need 12V or thereabouts for the motors.

[Altitude]

Here is what I did:

JLcooper CS-10 Mac (RS-422) control surface (8 faders, transport, jog wheel, everything soft assignable) :$20 abandonware

Midibox GM5 USB-midi 1x1 interface: $20

MOTU RS422 Mac Midi interface :$7

Result: Steinberg native supported control surface for less than $50 with USB

[technobreath]

Thanks for response!

nILS, I'll make a drawing of my box and post it soon. I guess I will have to take my time studying wire diagrams and schematics. The answers is helpful. Also nILS, is it you who distribute the GM5 5x5 boards? I edited a wiki page for a order of a spare board from the first shipment, but I am unsure if it was done correctly - and do you send the PM in this forum with pay info? I read your rules - no whining :) - don't mean to whine, just making sure I did it right :). Good rules.

For powersupplying the motorfaders - can I just put in a 7812 in the powersupply schematics and grab som juice from there or would it be better to build a seperate psu cuircut for this purpose?

Or better, is there any existing ready-made PCB for this?

Thanks! :)

EDIT:

I had a look at the MF schematics, there was the PSU diagram, must have overlooked it before... :)

Edited November 25, 2010 by technobreath

[technobreath]

By the way, why is it not possible to use the 32 core?

[findbuddha]

Read here:

[technobreath]

I see...

OK, I have another question before bed. I had a look in my suitcase where the midibox parts (the ones I had left that is) is resting in peace :). I found a strip of PIC16F452, they haven't been touched since I recieved them some years ago, just packed away... Now that I have time and money to revive my dreams, I need someone to burn the bootloader to the chips - that way I can load whatever I need to load onto it via MIDI right?

Is someone willing to burn my chips? there are 3 to 5 of them - don't have the packages in front of me right now, so I don't remember - but anyway there should be a bootloader on every one of them - coz what else should I use them for right? :)

So if anyone is willing to do this, I will send you the chips. I do of course pay the postage fees to get it to you and back again... don't know exactly how - but we figure that out. Just PM me if you can do me this favour, so that I don't have to build my own burner... :) I'm in Norway, southwest, so if any norwegians can do it that would of course be the easy way, but it shouldn't be a big deal to ship international either :).

EDIT:

It would be smart to get MIOS loaded to the chips at the same time right?

So, I would really appreciate if someone could do this for me.

Thanks!

Edited November 28, 2010 by technobreath

[Altitude]

it would probably cost the same to just get a pic programmer and do it yourself..

I use one of these:

http://cgi.ebay.com/iCA01-USB-Microchip-PIC-Programmer-Set-ICSP-Adapter-/270668816624?pt=LH_DefaultDomain_0&hash=item3f051e60f0

[technobreath]

Ok, I will probably get a burner off ebay if none of you can burn them for me - it's just that I won't use the burner for more than this time, so I'd still appreciate the favour if someone will do it.

I have bought some more stuff off ebay, connectors and stuff that I will have use for. I realize that this project needs a lot of planning, and since I have minimal hands on experience with controllers like what I'm about to build I will also very much appreciate tips on what features (knobs, faders, leds, displays) to implement.

I'm still working on a mockup for you guys to see what I'm thinking, but it's a bit more difficult than I thought - I sat down with paper and pen and began to draw, but I soon understood that I don't even know what I want with it :) (Help :) hehe.

Some questions for the planning:

- Can you use both motorfaders and pots on one single core?

- If I cannot combine mf and pots, can I build a 24 channel (including one master volume fader) LC and use encoders for eq, pan etc instead of pots?

- Can I use ledrings on encoders in the scenario above?

- In one core with 8 motorfaders how many (physical) digital inputs and digital outputs is there for me to use?

- One encoder uses 2 inputs - is this always true?

- How is talkback usually implemented in a console like this?

thanks!

EDIT:

I was sitting here thinking of displays to use for the box. What kind of display should I use? Is a graphical display supported, or is it just character displays? I saw one project here cant remember what project, but in the pictures the display looked like VFD, but it was said to be a LCD with white characters and black background. Any idea on where to begin to get these? I fell in love. I would really like VFD though, but I have no idea on where to get them other than ebay, and most were too small and a bit expensive, but in the end the money doesn't really matter - not that I am rich or anything :) - it's just that I will work on this some time, and spread the expenses... So if it's 10 or 40 euros for a display won't mean that much...

Edited December 1, 2010 by technobreath