TK.

Upcoming MBHP_MF_NG module

348 posts in this topic

No, this was actually a clever question: especially the "sine" function allows you not only to check the calibration values, but it also checks if the motor voltage provided by your PSU is robust enough when all faders are moved concurrently.

 

If the sine function fails as well, then the problem is related to power integrity.

If the sine function is working, further debugging is required for the MIDI event forwarding (a MIDI monitor could help to troubleshoot this)

 

Best Regards, Thorsten.

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Hello

 

I'm new here, some pple on groupdiy point me on this forum regarding automated fader

I have a look at the main website, also here in the forum. I think i find the correct place :happy:

 

My "project" is basically to replace my diy patchable VCA automation on my hold discrete mixing desk.

I have a long read and I understand that all the ppl prototyping/building controller around the MF board set it up with servo track fader only (for DAW control)

My goal is tu use dual track (log audio+lin servo) to perform a passive audio automated fader, like "flying fader", "moving fader system" or more recent API 1608 and neve "swift mix" in the 5088.

 

I find ALPS RSA0 series with servo and audio track that will be good for prototype as your guys already use this series with success right?

I don't find K series yet or P&G8000 with dual track, but if someone have input? i want to test different hi qualities fader. RSA0 are "low cost" and audio spec are not optimal for my use especially the audio taper tolerance.

I want to buy a MF_NG kit, i saw them in America trough midibox-shop, nothing in EU for this?

 

For what I understand i need to print firmware to the PIC, i'm not able to do it, so I have to ask when I buy it, I just have no idea about "PIC ID header" I need. After that I can access all other setup/calibration via MIDI with MIOS right? I don't understand everything about software right now but will learn.

 

MF_NG work in stand alone right? in need nothing more for prototype (except PSU)

 

Enough question for the moment, i just let you know my final goal

 

32 motor fader controlled by DAW fader

32 rec automation push button + 32 led status

32 play automation push button + 32 led status

32 automation mode select push button with led status (have to define how many mode i need...)

32 relay paralleling my mute switch (actually driving a FET post fader)

If possible with more core system there will be 12 more fader pack (44 total) for master and aux return

 

I'm not talking about mechanical integration but I want to keep it modular, as the console is. By the way it's a 70' Studer 289

 

Tks in advance.

The system your developing is so exciting :hyper:

 

Zam

Edited by Zam

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Hi Zam

Thats a huge Projekt you are planing here.

I am developing modules for a DAW remote that may look similar, but without Audio. I have some pre built modules from smashTV (midibox-shop.com) that i dont need anymore because i built my own. PM me if you whant pre built ones...

Best regards

Novski

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Hi Zam

Thats a huge Projekt you are planing here.

I am developing modules for a DAW remote that may look similar, but without Audio. I have some pre built modules from smashTV (midibox-shop.com) that i dont need anymore because i built my own. PM me if you whant pre built ones...

Best regards

Novski

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Hi Zam

Thats a huge Projekt you are planing here.

I am developing modules for a DAW remote that may look similar, but without Audio. I have some pre built modules from smashTV (midibox-shop.com) that i dont need anymore because i built my own. PM me if you whant pre built ones...

Best regards

Novski

Hey Novski

Tks for reply

When you say pre built you mean already soldered? I may be interested, depending of your price. Let me know :)

Are the firmware already printed? I just have to install the OS?

The advantage of the kit is that i don't have to pay soldering job, and I also have just component I need and extra connector and ribbon in low quantities, Otherwise I have to order component in larger quantities (mostly on RS for me), for the prototype i don't need to many.

Your version is the pictures above on this page? You change the connector layout to have single ribbon with servo and touch for each fader?

I soon made a list of what I have to test.

for example what is the max length of ribbon between PCB and fader without losing data, my console frame is "large" and final project (if possible) will have all card in a 19" rack.

Zam

Edited by Zam

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I soon made a list of what I have to test.

for example what is the max length of ribbon between PCB and fader without losing data, my console frame is "large" and final project (if possible) will have all card in a 19" rack.

Keep the cables as short as possible, I wouldn't expect this to work for cables longer than 1m.

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Keep the cables as short as possible, I wouldn't expect this to work for cables longer than 1m.

 

yes...have to test, not an easy mechanical integration, I have room in the fader modules to put new fader and led/button, but not easy to leave pcb close to the front (fader) of the 8 unit subframe (5 in total), at best i can dispatch on the back of the console.

 

Zam

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Hey guys, its me again. Sine function is working properly. So if you could help me with the forwarding setup i would really apreciate that...

 

When i have this config how do i need to configure the single modules?

 

LP17Core OUT -> MF_NG 1 IN/ MF_NG 1 OUT -> MF_NG 2 IN/ MF_NG 2 OUT -> LP17Core IN

 

all connections are made of PSK Contacts and 3 Wire unshielded Cables.

 

BEst regards Alexander

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Did you follow the configuration steps described in this file?

http://svnmios.midibox.org/filedetails.php?repname=svn.mios32&path=%2Ftrunk%2Fapps%2Fcontrollers%2Fmidibox_ng_v1%2Fcfg%2Ftests%2Fmf_multi.ngc

 

Which informations are missing (I will add them)

E.g. the MF configuration can be found in this file as well - it has been tested by multiple users.

 

For the case you haven't considered this yet: always ensure that you are using the latest MBNG version.

 

Best Regards, Thorsten.

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Hello

 

I have a dumb question...

Are the MF_NG modules able to work "stand-alone" or do I need a core system in any case?

Zam

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Yes, the MF NG can run stand-alone. Take a look at the module's description!

Tks ilmenator, I already read this, but need a confirmation.

ALPS dual track (lin+log) are on the way.

If some one have an idea where to find dual linear track (servo+VCA) ? i don't find yet...

 

Zam

Edited by Zam

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Is your VCA driven by a different Voltage range then the 0-5V of the MF_NG Module? I don't really understand why you need a dual Linear Track... 

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Is your VCA driven by a different Voltage range then the 0-5V of the MF_NG Module? I don't really understand why you need a dual Linear Track... 

hey Novsky

 

actually my VCA (studer modular card around DBX/THAT) are set to 1V/40dB and are drived by a DC coupled soundcard in the +1/-2,5V range to achieve +40/-100 dB of gain.

If I want a moving fader (automated by DAW with HUI) I need one servo track, the other track will be the one driving the CV input of the VCA.

I not sure using the same DC signal for both function will be a good thing ? even if I do a converter/offset circuit from 0/-5 to +1/-2,5V (or +4/-10v, i have different CV sensitivities jumper)

But maybe it's something to try :)

 

Anyway the main goal is to keep the signal passive, that's the first thing I want to test.

VCA stay in my mind just because of my stereo channel, and accuracy i will find (or not) by using two audio fader.

TKD offer me stereo audio track + servo and touch, but I'm not sure it is in stock now.

 

Zam

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I am new to anything close to this level of work. does anyone offer the pcb's assembled? I am looking to make a controller with 16 or 24 motorfaders that's midi to run with Saw Studio or Software Audio Console. wouldn't be opposed to pan knobs and mute + solo buttons, but faders are my first objective

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mmm... double post :rofl:

Edited by Zam

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hello

 

Here is a preview of my "moving fader !

Anyway 3D rendering is just for fun, it's more to see how to put all i want in my existing frame modules

I'm already waiting for my MF board to perform the first test

 

I'm little disappointed about switches i find, there is so nice illuminated NKK or Omron, but none of them have pinout compatible with 2.5 or 2.54 pitch

For the moment the candidate are round ITT schadow with separated LED, and i keep the original illuminated EAO for the PFL

 

I have question regarding HUI or MCU mode with the MF_NG, is it possible to "flip" the destination (aux send for example) form MIOS?

 

Zam

 

 

 

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Hi Zam It is possible. Look in to the Manual. There you will find a section called Banks. It workes like this sample i fount there as well... Bank 1 EVENT_ENC id= 3 hw_id = 3 bank=1 fwd_id=LED_MATRIX:3 fwd_to_lcd=1 type=CC chn= 1 cc= 18 range= 0:127 offset= 0 ports=1000100000001000 lcd_pos=1:1:1 label="ENC #%3i %3d@(1:3:2)%B" Bank 2 EVENT_ENC id= 19 hw_id = 3 bank=2 fwd_id=LED_MATRIX:3 fwd_to_lcd=1 type=CC chn= 1 cc= 34 range= 0:127 offset= 0 ports=1000100000001000 lcd_pos=1:1:1 label="ENC #%3i %3d@(1:3:2)%B" This assigns different parameters to the same Hardware. In your case the fader. Like that its possible to switch a send of any kind to a fader or encoder and back. I think the Mec switches are in 2.54 piches... Check this: http://www.mec.dk/files/MEC/brochures/5G-caps.pdf The backdraw is that the dubble LEDs cant be used both in one design... Because of the inverse diodes on top of the switch... And they are expensive. Contact me if you like them, i have a bunch spare... Best regards Novski

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tks Novski to pointing me at this, I will look better an learn MIOS

I ask this because i think i will print my physical fader automation in an aux send as i want to keep signal to the DAW mute/solo and main fader trough analogue output, then to each individual desk voices where my passive motorised audio fader is.

I don't need to implement physical button flip function, I will never flip, as I pass audio I don't want my fader to read or write another data

 

I attach my pic again, seem like it disappear in both post when I edit the double post...

 

I look at this Mec switches some days ago, and now I don't remember why I don't try it in my design :question:

 

Zam

post-20897-0-08135100-1403269913_thumb.j

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Hello

 

First prototype is running, i will share pict soon

Lot of thing to check like motor electronic noise in my analogue audio path, i was able to reduce it with proper grounding, but still there when not touching the sense fader caps, anyway it's close to my Studer noise floor, should not be an issue as noise level is function of the fader position, and in real life if fader is up there is loud audio passing trough (min 60 dB over noise floor)

Second issue is mechanical noise, I'm not free regarding mechanical integration as i have to make the fader fit an existing frame/design, i have huge resonance in the frame and aluminium structure/pate, my first proto is not good i have to rethink the mechanic :) and maybe put some rubber/absorber somewhere, I use ALPS now, maybe it will be better with TKD fader

Also the regulator run HOT

 

Now some question!

Is it possible to rescale and change the response curve of the fader physical position?

The "problem" is that the DAW reading fader value don't match my real log audio response, it's not a problem when using a single fader, I don't care if I have offset or non matching boost/attenuation reading the value.

BUT if I group some fader the relative attenuation between audio channel is not linear

 

For example:

DAW side,

I have a kick on channel 1 at 0dB and a snare on channel 2 at -10dB that's 10 dB differential, both channel in same "drum" group

Now i move the kick 5 dB down given to me -5dB for kick, the snare fader follow and set the fader value at -15, relative power still matched, 10dB

On the analogue side,

Kick are initially at top pos (0dB) and move down to -2cm position (say it's a real attenuation of 8dB)

The snare are initially at -2cm position ( -8dB) and move to -4cm position giving 20 dB of attenuation.

My relative power change from 8dB (0-8) to 12 dB (8-20). My gain structure is broken and the snare is (relative) 4dB quieter

 

How can I manage that ?

 

Zam

 

PS: I start this project 2 month ago, and there will be a long time left before I solve everything, but I have to say your system is addictive and open a new world to me, THANKS !!!

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mmm...  I have some read in the manual

 

did MAP command be a solution?

 

I also see the "curve" setup in the CV tool, i think it's something like that I need, but with a custom curve, that i can adjust...

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Hi Zam

There is a Calibration Tool in MIOS Studio. Its under Tools and called "MBHP_MF_NG Tool". 

Im sure you can adjust the faders there but i can't really follow your statements above.

I think your console must has dBu marks beside the Faders so the 0dBu point must be below the Top by  -18dBfs of the full length of the fader.

Because of the Logarithmic scale you have to ajust the -18dBfs point of your DAW correctly to the 0dbu mark on your Console. 

br, novski

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hello Novski

 

Off course I use the MF Tool !!!

 

I don't know how i can explain thins in other way :(

DAW fader log scale and analogue console log track are not the same log, and i need them to match.

The -18dBfs is a studio reference, nothing to do here.

The 0dB attenuation is always on the top of a resistor divider, but most of the  manufacturer put a 0 ref label at -10dB attenuation and put a 10dB buffer after the fader so unity gain are not on top

 

what I need is a solution to convert DAW fader pitchbend value to another physical fader position on the MF_NG side

example:

pitchbend value 0 set the fader half way, 50mm from top in a 100mm fader.

But how can I do this  0 value put the fader 25mm from top?

 

I go to make some measurement and tab and i'm back :smile:

 

Zam

Edited by Zam

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hey

 

here it is

 

first graph:

 

X is dB reduction

Y is pitch bend value

 

red is the value read in MIOS according to DAW position fader

blue is the value read in MIOS when I position my fader at real analogue attenuation

 

I want the 2 curves to be the same :smile:

 

second graph:

 

X DAW fader pitch bend value

Y analogue fader pitch bend value

 

each point take for the same attenuation in dB (0-5-10-15-20-25-30-40-50-60-70-inf)

 

I want the line to be a straight one :smile:

 

-----------------------

 

let take the example at 10dB attenuation (ref to full top position)

 

DAW send a PB value of 1252, but at this value the motor driver don't put my analogue fader at 10dB attenuation,

the fader need a PB value of 2576 to achieve this.

So, I need to translate value 1252 to 2576

 

at 20dB I need to translate -2480 to -1696 etc...

 

Zam

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

post-20897-0-46908400-1404062161_thumb.j

post-20897-0-46679800-1404062709_thumb.j

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The problem with the MAP feature in MBNG is, that it only works with up to 256 values (8bit), but the faders are controlled with 14bit resolution, and you really want to keep this resolution.

 

A 14bit map would consume 32k RAM - no way to implement this for the PIC, and even for the MIOS32 based MBNG not enough RAM is available for such a feature anymore.

 

Therefore I think it would be better to do the mapping at the host side.

Are you using a Mac? Do you know how to compile programs from a Terminal? Then I could give you a simple program which is doing the translation.

 

Best Regards, Thorsten.

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