TK.

Upcoming MBHP_MF_NG module

348 posts in this topic

Hi,

after a few weeks searching for a solution to get my Analog Desk automated, I found this forum! Great!

Many thanks to all of You who get this thing running, specially TK!

A few questions:

@tk: As you mentioned in Post #1

"Two snapshots of the prototype - currently I've only tested the circuit with high-quality K Faders, which were not properly controllable with MBHP_MF_V1"

- Is this "fixed" now?

Can I use coreless DC Motors (especially FAULHABER Motors) and have a proper Control?

- Can I use the SN754410 instead of the L293D (it can handle 1A compared to 600ma) without any problems?

- Is it possible to leave out all the PSU components if I supply the two different Voltages externally?

- Do I really need a core module if I want to run more than I Fader-Module (I need 4)?

Or can I connect each Module to a independant MIDI Out (Each PIC will have a unique ID. Its connectetd via HUI to ProTools)?

Edit:

I Need an analog switch for "Motors Off",

Can I simply Switch of the two wires to the Motors via relay?

Or will this cause some errors in any Way?

Is there a better Way to do it (Not in Software)?

Many, many Thanks!!!

Best,

koerschgen

Edited by koerschgen

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Hi,

@tk: As you mentioned in Post #1

"Two snapshots of the prototype - currently I've only tested the circuit with high-quality K Faders, which were not properly controllable with MBHP_MF_V1"

- Is this "fixed" now?

It is fixed with the MBHP_MF_NG module (the successor of the V1 module).

Can I use coreless DC Motors (especially FAULHABER Motors) and have a proper Control?

I can't say this, because I haven't tested these motors.

- Can I use the SN754410 instead of the L293D (it can handle 1A compared to 600ma) without any problems?

It should work, but with such a high current consumption you really need a stronger PSU circuit...

- Is it possible to leave out all the PSU components if I supply the two different Voltages externally?

...yes, and it will be required.

- Do I really need a core module if I want to run more than I Fader-Module (I need 4)?

Or can I connect each Module to a independant MIDI Out (Each PIC will have a unique ID. Its connectetd via HUI to ProTools)?

Yes, you can also connect each module to individual MIDI IN/OUTs

Edit:

I Need an analog switch for "Motors Off",

Can I simply Switch of the two wires to the Motors via relay?

Or will this cause some errors in any Way?

Is there a better Way to do it (Not in Software)?

It's probably better done via software, but currently not implemented.

As always the problem: there is no spare pin for this. :-/

We could sacrifice the status LED pin for such a purpose; I would have to create a special firmware for you.

Or if you've assembler skills: you could modify the firmware by yourself of course.

Best Regards, Thorsten.

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Hi Thorsten, thanks for Your reply!

Thats all good news!

But to make some things more clear to me, do you mean Corless Motors in general or specially the Motor I mentioned?

I measured the stall current consumption of the Motor, it was about 650ma, so the L293D will probably do the job.

I will supply all the Power externally and connect it directly to the Pins of the L293D at the bottom Layer.

Or can the PCB handle more than 5A in the worst case?

attached is the datasheet of the motor. Its the 1724L012S (12V)

The Motors-off-switch needs to be discussed later, as I need to build 24 Faders first...

Is it true that the Voltage will drop a little bit if a PWM is used for Motor control?

So is it a good or bad Idea to raise the Voltage for the Motor up to (lets say) 13V?

Thanks!

Koerschgen

FH1724S.pdf

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But to make some things more clear to me, do you mean Corless Motors in general or specially the Motor I mentioned?

I've experiences with the coreless motors which are used for Alps faders, but my impression is that they are faster, but also much louder, therefore I don't really like them.

I measured the stall current consumption of the Motor, it was about 650ma, so the L293D will probably do the job.

I will supply all the Power externally and connect it directly to the Pins of the L293D at the bottom Layer.

Or can the PCB handle more than 5A in the worst case?

No, it isn't prepared for such high voltages.

Is it true that the Voltage will drop a little bit if a PWM is used for Motor control?

It wouldn't drop on an ideal power supply. ;-)

So is it a good or bad Idea to raise the Voltage for the Motor up to (lets say) 13V?

I've no experiences with motors which are supplied at such high voltages - I never tried this out by myself.

Personally I prefer low voltages (e.g. 5V) and a bit slower, but much more silent moves.

Best Regards, Thorsten.

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The reason why I have to use this Motor is, because I have an old desk which has big faders (130mm), so I need to build my own custom Faders. and I had the chance to get 30 old motorised faders with the mentioned coreless Motor (but without a Audio Taper). Its the oldschool Version with a big wheel mounted on a 10k Pot and driven with a nylon string. So I need to use this Motor (to keep the costs Low). If the Speed of the fader movement is to high, I could change the ratio of the "gear". (the Motor rotates 4 1/2 Turns if the fader is moved from bottom to top).

In the Old Fader the Motor driver was the L293D to, so this Problem is solved. I saw in the original schematics that the Motor Supply was 15v, maybe to lower the current a Little Bit.

Is it a Problem to use a switching Psu for the Motor Supply? Will this may cause Problems with the PWM Control?

@TK: 15V isn´t that high I think... Do you mean high current instead?

Thanks so far...!

Koerschgen

Edited by koerschgen

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Is it a Problem to use a switching Psu for the Motor Supply? Will this may cause Problems with the PWM Control?

I'm using a switched PSU as well (cheap 10 EUR no-name from Pollin), it works without problems.

@TK: 15V isn´t that high I think... Do you mean high current instead?

No, I think that 15V is a high voltage to drive motorfaders, but I might be wrong in your case...

Best Regards, Thorsten.

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Oh, good, that saves me a lot of Money, because I will need about 15A for three Boards (for the unexpected worst case that all Faders are forced to stop...)

The Motor I use is rated with 12v, but it seems to be that the engineers who designed the Fader back in the days gave them 15V... (see attachment)

I think this PTC will bring a nice protection in combination with a sloblo Fuse for each Board:

http://www.conrad.de/ce/de/product/551228/Bourns-Multifuse-Serie-MF-R-Abmessungen-74-mm-Abmessungen-74-mm-IH-03-A/SHOP_AREA_17392&promotionareaSearchDetail=005

Is there any need for Motor Suppression Capacitors?

Thanks

K

post-11073-0-58001600-1342989303_thumb.p

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...built to last!

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...built to last!

1000%

And no free play, no rattlesnake inside, no noise (ok, a little bit...)

The side panels are damped with felt.

post-11073-0-08644800-1342997169_thumb.j

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btw, I will run the Fader Modules with Mackie Hui.

Will it cause problems with HUI if I deactivate 4 of the Faders, because I only need 20 in my Setup?

Answered the above question by myself... it works.

small update:

Today The Fader-board arrived, everything works fine from the first startup!

Tested it with the old original Fader, works in general, but it took me the whole day to figure out a good setting.

12v was way to strong, even though the motor is rated that high. I ended up using 6v... (as you said, Thorsten)

Its not that fast anymore, but it turned out that noise is a big problem... the best setting so far is MinDuty 15, MaxDuty 100

PWM Steps are at 30. Btw, couldt figure out how to load a saved "preset"... All of the saved Sys.ex Files were grayed out!?

Am I missing something?

Now I need to build the first Prototyp fader were the slider sits much tighter on the rail and can be adjusted,

this will eleminate a bit more of the noise (wich comes 50/50 from the motor and from the Slider).

Any Ideas how to lower the Noise a little bit more...?

What can I change with "MF Deadband"? I experienced no differene when I changed it to other values...

Thorsten, are you interested in testing a Fader?

Maybe You find out something else to control these beasts...

Thanks!

Edited by koerschgen

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Is there a spec sheet for motor specifics for the MF_NG module?

I want to build a motorized expression pedal board.

8 motorized expression pedals with preset positions.

Similar to motorfader activity, just moving an expression pedal.

Servo with encoder, Stepper with encoder?

Thanks Eric G

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Where can i find more information about Midibox Link?

I can't follow when it comes to the Midi - USB of Core LPC17.

Are Pins A6/A7 on J5B TTL Level as well as the J11 on MF_NG Modul?

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The MIDIbox Link topic is only relevant when multiple PIC based cores should be chained, and informations from the host should be tunneled from the first to the last PIC without feedback to the DAW.

If multiple, chained PIC based cores should be connected to a single MIDI IN/OUT pair of the MBHP_CORE_LPC17 module, then the last PIC should be configured as "Endpoint", and all others as "Forwarding Point" - thats all.

The MBHP_CORE_LPC17 module should run a firmware which provides an internal MIDI router, so that the data stream can be forwarded to USB MIDI (so that it acts as a MIDI interface to your DAW).

This router is integrated into most applications meanwhile and can either by configured from the MIOS Terminal (-> type "help"), or from a control surface.

Are Pins A6/A7 on J5B TTL Level as well as the J11 on MF_NG Modul?

They are not TTL, but working in a valid voltage level range so that they can be directly connected to J11 of the MF_NG Module; no optocouplers or levelshifters required.

Note that you could also use the J4B port (MIDI IN/OUT 4) if you need J5 for other purposes.

Best Regards, Thorsten.

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I just have released a new version, it can be downloaded from http://www.ucapps.de/mbhp_mf_ng.html

V1.002 got a Mackie HUI and Motormix emulation mode:

mbhp_mf_ng_operating_modes.png

For selecting the new modes you need MIOS Studio 2.2.4 (or higher)

Best Regards, Thorsten.

This is a great update! All of us who use ProTools thank you! I now have 16 faders that will work with all the DAWs I switch between (PT, Nuendo, Cubase). I hadn't been watching this thread for a while and only now have implemented the update. It works like a charm.

ControlRoom2.jpg

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Hello there!

I was looking for a solution for fader automation on analog mixer, and some users on the prodigy-pro diy audio forum pointed me to this thread.

Wow! - I think this MIDI solution is brilliant and should fit perfectly in my setup and workflow.

Right now I'm doing a bit of research because of MIDI noob-iness. When I'll have a more focused idea I'll throw you some questions.

Thanks for sharing!

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Really nice picture, GiPitt!

Are the red Faders only control Fader for you Daw, or do they hava a Audio Taper?

What kind of Mixing Desk is this?

Cheers,

K.

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MBHP_MF_NG firmware v1.3 is available now

It allows to select the MIDI channel in Mackie HUI, Motormix and various CC modes.

The selection can be done with MIOS Studio 2.3.0 (or higher)

Best Regards, Thorsten.

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Really nice picture, GiPitt!

Are the red Faders only control Fader for you Daw, or do they hava a Audio Taper?

What kind of Mixing Desk is this?

Cheers,

K.

Hey K,

I haven't been on the forum for quite awhile (obviously) so am just now seeing your post. The red fader panel is the 16 motorfaders. I wanted to make sure it worked with this many before diving into the rest. They only work with the DAW at this point, but my plan is to test out dual faders in the future so I have control of the VCA on the board as well as the DAW (or use extra DAW tracks as fader position only and let the board VCA's do the level control). But that project will have to wait until next year sometime when I have time between recording projects. This is a 60 channel Amek Media 51 with the pres and EQs designed by Mr. Rupert Neve.

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Wow this really took off since last I checked! Great job Thorsten.

 

Does this board only work with the Alps K motorfader? Or does it work with the previous lower quality "V1" motorfaders?

Where can I source the Alps K series? Is there a group buy? Cant find them anywhere. 

Thanks!

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I can't recommend the usage of the Alps K faders, they are louder than for example a RSAON11M9 - I only used them to ensure, that the firmware can also handle faster faders, which were problematic with the previous solution.

 

So: RSAON11M9 is still a good choice.

 

Best Regards, Thorsten.

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Awesome.

 

Another question: can multiple CORE_LPC17 Modules be used at the same time? (In case I need more than 32 motorized faders for example).

 

Thanks

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I asked this question in december 2012 it can be found here: 

And was further discussed in this Topic: 

Main advantage was to have a Display for each Fader/Channel. But in the mean time TK and Duggle implemented a way to hook up 64 Displays to one Core.

You can Read about that here:

 

The schematic about the connection between multiple Cores is to find here: http://www.ucapps.de/midibox_ng/multicore_interconnections.png

But i don't think anybody ever really tried this exept maybe TK. 

 

How many Faders do you need?

 

Best Regards 

novski

Edited by novski

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I found two "imperfections" (nasty bugs) in the MBHP_NG_MF firmware: the LSB wasn't correctly handled in Motormix/Mackie HUI mode, and the touchdetection sometimes prevented faders moves, although this should be disabled if the touch sensor mode is not disabled.

 

Both issues are fixed in mbhp_mf_ng_v1_004 -> http://www.ucapps.de/mbhp_mf_ng.html

 

Best Regards, Thorsten.

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