TK.

Upcoming MBHP_MF_NG module

353 posts in this topic

I asked this question in december 2012 it can be found here: 

And was further discussed in this Topic: 

Main advantage was to have a Display for each Fader/Channel. But in the mean time TK and Duggle implemented a way to hook up 64 Displays to one Core.

You can Read about that here:

 

The schematic about the connection between multiple Cores is to find here: http://www.ucapps.de/midibox_ng/multicore_interconnections.png

But i don't think anybody ever really tried this exept maybe TK. 

 

How many Faders do you need?

 

Best Regards 

novski

 

Thanks for the links. I will read them as soon as I got the time. 

 

Ideally I would like 48 faders. 

 

Basically 40 "channel" strips each including: small oled (just for channel name), 4 illuminated switches, 1 encoder + led ring and a 20-led meter.

And 8 "bus" strips the same as above minus 2 switches, encoder and led ring but double the amount of leds (stereo meter)

And a "master control" section consisting of various swiches (transport, etc), master meter and a "selected channel section" which has 8 encoders controlling the sends of whatever channel is selected. No master fader.

 

Would this be possible with 2 Core_LPC17 modules?

 

Also, are faders limited to 127 states? 

 

Thanks!!

Edited by tomas1808

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I recently bought 12 pcb mount Alps motor faders (RSA0N11M9A07) and am planning to build a MF module for 8 of them. To me it seems much better to make a pcb with mounting holes for these faders instead of soldering 6 cables to each.The surrounding case could also be made smaller if there are no bulky cables in the way, and sturdier as the faders are supported by the PCB.

 

Has anyone made a PCB like this? If not, is there a demand?

Any problems with this approach that I'm overlooking? The only thing I'm aware of is that the spacing would of course be static. Is there any standard for that?

Other thoughts?

 

Using as a reference, the complete circuit would easily fit between the connectors of the faders. The height of socketed DIP packages isn't a problem, the clearance is 18mm.

MIDI and power connectors could be located on either side, MIDI connectors fit under the faders (see pic)

 

I've done some simple circuits in kicad, and should be able to do this myself. It may take a while though and I'd appreciate any help.

 

Fader specifications with dimensions and pinout

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Well manisteinn, i am going this way sice a Year now. I have Prototype 2 on my Table now and will be able to make a functional up to May or so... 

But i took the 0K with Soldering Pins because they are not so far away from the PCB witch makes it easyer to find a Switch that fits on top of the PCB.

I selected a MEC G5 Iluminated button,a OLED Display, a Bourns PEC12 Iluminated encoder and made a LED Ring around each of the 8 Encoders.

So what i'm now Testing is a 8 Fader with 3 Buttons per Channel and one Encoder with Matrix. And as a goodie the 0.96" OLED Display for each channel. It was quite hard tho get that on one Board with a width of 22x22 cm.

 

Attached a Pic of the unfinished Test.

 

Im planing to make a slave pcb as well so a daisy-chain of 3 more (4x8=32 faders) is possible. But i have to do one by one...

 

Did you already evaluate a button to the A07 type of Fader yet?

 

Best Regards

novski

post-10711-0-13045200-1365542352_thumb.j

post-10711-0-88260800-1365542368_thumb.j

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Wow, that looks amazing!

 

I thought I'd begin by making a simple 8 fader module and connect to a core module with more buttons/displays at a later time, I also thought about using 0.96" displays.

 

About the buttons, I just ordered a bunch of different buttons from ebay a while back, one of them looks just like yours. I haven't really looked into that.

 

Do you plan to make the PCBs available? I'd certainly get one if you do!

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Yes. I will somehow. But i have to get to a end of prototypeing bevor... Stay in Touch. I will maybe just make a bulk Order someday...

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Novski's design is EXACTLY what I am looking to do, but alas after months of researching all of these forums and pages, I still get confused on how a guy like me could make a controller like these a reality. To be honest, I don't know how you guys do it, you all make it look so easy. Well, I'll just say that I'm not going to give up, and continue to try and understand and piece this together... this is a Must for me!

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Instead of emulating Mackie Control or Mackie HUI protocols, is it possibly to have external communication by OSC?  Just wondering...

 

Ardour can now controlled by Mackie but it can also be controlled by OSC.. So I was wondering about that.

 

Thanks.

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Instead of emulating Mackie Control or Mackie HUI protocols, is it possibly to have external communication by OSC?  Just wondering...

Sure, you only have to code this yourself. If you are good at programming this should be absolutely doable. Maybe run the MIDIbox NG on the core?

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Hi, I am looking for some infos regarding fader motors:

 

As far as I understand this, the direction of the fader (up, down) is set by the prolarity of the motor. So theoretically by switching the +/- connections of the motor, I can detemine, if the fader moves up or down. I tried this with regular Alps faders (RSAON11M9).

 

Can this be considered a general rule for all motorfaders, cored and coreless?

 

The reason I am asking is this: I am planning a frontpanel with motorfaders, but I would like to allign the faders, so that the motors are located "below" the fader, not above (like in TK´s picture with the K-faders). I know this is possible with the mentioned Alps N-faders, but I got some Penny & Giles fader (PGFM3200) I want to use, and I don´t want to ruin them by accidentally damaging the motors.

 

Does anyone have any experience with those faders?

 

Thanks and greets.

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Yes, the polarity switch is reliable for all faders

 

Best Regards, Thorsten.

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Wow, that was fast. Thanks for the quick reply and for the helpfull info.

 

Greets.

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Hi,

 

I have another quick one. If I just want to connect 1 Fader (Masterfader) to the MF module, is it possible to leave out 3 of the L293D ICs? If so, do I have to bridge something? I guess, since those are analog inputs, I have to clamp A2-A8 of J2 to ground? Something else? Touchsensor connections maybe?

 

Thanks and Greetings.

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Hi,

 

 

 

is it possible to leave out 3 of the L293D ICs?

 

yes

 

 

 

If so, do I have to bridge something?

I guess, since those are analog inputs, I have to clamp A2-A8 of J2 to ground?

 

yes, it's recommended to connect the remaining analog inputs to ground (as usual)

No need to bridge something else, the H bridges are acting as outputs...

 

 

 

Touchsensor connections maybe?

 

not required as long as you don't touch the pins ;-)

 

Best Regards, Thorsten.

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Hi TK,

 

thanks again for the very informative reply. I am getting closer by the day now  :smile:.

 

Greetings

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not required as long as you don't touch the pins ;-)

 

Wold it be more secure to connect those Touchsensor pins to a 1MOhm instead of the R16-19 (47k) Resistor?

Or are those sensors de-connected in software any way, as soon as i configure the MF_NG for 1 Fader?

 

The second thought is to leave out the IC6 (74HC165 for Touch) completely. - What consequences wold that have?

 

Thanks

Novski

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hi as i allready see a quastion about MB_MF i will add mine to :-)

 

i'm going to use 5 motorfaders can i just Use 3x l293d IC and keep number 6 un-connected?

do i also need to connect pin 6,7,8 to ground so it doesnt send ALLOT of random Value's?

 

/Spirit

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Wold it be more secure to connect those Touchsensor pins to a 1MOhm instead of the R16-19 (47k) Resistor?

 

no

 

 

Or are those sensors de-connected in software any way, as soon as i configure the MF_NG for 1 Fader?

 

 

Yes! :)

 

 

 

The second thought is to leave out the IC6 (74HC165 for Touch) completely. - What consequences wold that have?

 

You would have to bridge pin 9 and 10 of the removed 74HC165 to ensure that the PIC gets an inactive logic level (=5V) via R22 pull-up

 

 

 

i'm going to use 5 motorfaders can i just Use 3x l293d IC and keep number 6 un-connected?

 

yes

 

 

 

do i also need to connect pin 6,7,8 to ground so it doesnt send ALLOT of random Value's?

 

yes

 

In addition, please select only 6 faders in the "MBHP_MF_NG configuration tool" (part of MIOS STudio), and push the Send button, so that this configuration will be permanently stored in EEPROM.

 

Best Regards, Thorsten.

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hi again i also see something else i'm not sure about if i need to add this..

 

But on the LPC.pdf i see R23 (1K resistor)  on RXD3.

and on the MF_NG.pdf i see R6 (1K resistor) on RX

 

and i wonder do i also need to add these resistors if i like to Connect the LPC and MF_NG with the RX / TX.

or is it only used if you use the 6N138.

 

and is it possible to send the .Hex for the MF_NG thru the LPC module?

or do i realy need to add the 6N138 to upload the .HEX file thru midi ?

 

Many thanks, Spirit

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Hi,

 

and i wonder do i also need to add these resistors if i like to Connect the LPC and MF_NG with the RX / TX.

or is it only used if you use the 6N138.

 

No, you don't need these pull-up resistors if the MBHP_MF_NG module is permanently connected to your MBNG

 

 

 

and is it possible to send the .Hex for the MF_NG thru the LPC module?

 

yes!

If you use this configuration example, the application can be uploaded via the USB3 port (because it has been configured as "config_port"): http://svnmios.midibox.org/filedetails.php?repname=svn.mios32&path=%2Ftrunk%2Fapps%2Fcontrollers%2Fmidibox_ng_v1%2Fcfg%2Ftests%2Fmf_cc.ngc

 

Best Regards, Thorsten.

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Hi, I´m testing PGFM3200 motorfader atm and am a bit troubled.

 

1. There are working generally, but they are moving slowly and not very smooth. After a night of testing different settings, I believe, the voltage of 7.5v might not be enough. Is there a way to raise the motor voltage to 9v or 10v?

 

2. Another thing I don´t understand. If I touch the lever, random midi events are generated around the fader position (e.g. fader value = 40 -> jitter value = 35-45). This happens independently from the touchsensor settings. I have to raise the AIN deadband to 25 minimum to make this stop. Is there a way to avoid this?

 

Thanks and greetings

Edited by John E. Finster

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Hi,

 

Is there a way to raise the motor voltage to 9v or 10v?

 

yes, there is a simple way: you could replace the 470 ohm resistor R21 by 1k, this should increase the voltage range (see also LM317 datasheet how to calculate the resulting voltage range)

 

 

 

If I touch the lever, random midi events are generated around the fader position (e.g. fader value = 40 -> jitter value = 35-45). This happens independently from the touchsensor settings. I have to raise the AIN deadband to 25 minimum to make this stop. Is there a way to avoid this?

 

this is very strange!

It sounds like a faders have a resistance which is higher than 10k?

 

Best Regards, Thorsten.

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Hi TK, thanks for the info on the motor voltage. I will try that next week.

 

I was able to solve the jitter problem today. It seems to have been caused by the psu. After I changed the psu (more by accident than intent), the jitter stopped.

 

As soon as I´ve tested the higher motor voltage, I´ll provide a feedback.

 

Thanks again and my regards.

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hi everyone i played with my MB_MF and everything seems to work great!!!!

i bought these faders RS60N11M9-LIN5K at the first look i did not noticed they where 5K but They work Great so thats no issue..

 

but i played a little bit with the Parameter i can change but i realy dont have a clue whats good and whats wrong..

i have 5V on them...

 

i tried allot of differnt settings but they allmost give the same results..

it seems like Spotting the proverbial needle in a haystack and i dont have a clue how the Needle should look like.

 

is there a Tutorial how to fine tune your Motorfaders.

 

/spirit

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Hi Spirit,

 

I don´t understand muchabout what all the parameters do in detail, but I also had some success with different kinds of faders till now. So I can tell you what I learned so far:

 

Here is an explanation another community member gave me regarding AIN and MF Deadband:

 

 

1. PWM Steps: This defines how fast the H bridge is 'pulsed' to control the fader motor. If you find that your motor is sluggish then you can adjust this.
2. AIN Deadband: All A-to-D (analogue to digital) circuits suffer from a certain amount of 'jitter'. The AIN deadband allows you to set a minimum amount of change in the analogue input before it is reported as a 'move' of the fader.
3: MF Deadband: I guess that this is the reverse of AIN deadband? only engage the motor if the input value has moved significantly. although TK will be able to confirm this??/

If you find that the faders are a bit jittery then you should be able to adjust the deadband values to counter it.

 

 

With the individual parameters on the second page of the Mios tool you can adjust the "way" of the fader (sorry, no other word comes to mind).

 

So, if your fader is driven to the ends with to much force (you hear a loud "clack" or the fader even jumps back) you can decrease the Min/Max Duty Up/Down values. If the fader doesn´t reach the end completely you can increase the values.

I don´t know exactly what the relation is between MIN and MAX duty cycle though, for testing I put in the same value for min and max. You have to play with these values untill you find the right values for your faders.

 

The MIN and MAX Value (20 and 1000 by default) is for limiting the highest and lowest position of the fader. If the fader "overshots" the end or doesn´t reach it, you could manipulate these values too.

 

If you experience jitter while trying to reach the middle position, you can decrease the min/max duty cycle up/down values of the fader, that "calms" the fader while reaching the middle position.

 

The voltage determines the speed of the fader, but also the noise a fader makes. Generally, faster means louder. If you are fine with 5v (speed and noise) you can leave that.

 

That´s it so far. I will do some more testing next week with my new faders and maybe I have some new insights to share then.

 

my regards

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hi thnks for you replay.

 

i allready noticed what each parameter does..

 

but What is Wrong and wat is good..

 

as you say about the CLACK the fader can do. i noticed this if i Change the PWN steps..

 

if its on 0.00mS then i hear a CLACK..

but if its on 0.50ms i hear a Very high (note)Sound from the motor..

 

what is better for the motors to have the PWM steps on 0.00mS or higher..

the same for all the other parameters.

 

the lower the parameter the better or the higher the parameter the better, and offcourse each Parameter can be differnt..

but i dont like to Burn out the motors on the first year i use them..

 

and i got the 5v From TK first post as he used the same faders only then the 10K version..

 

Kind regards, Spirit

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