Tonka Posted June 13, 2011 Report Share Posted June 13, 2011 (edited) Hello all - wonder if somebody here can help me with this? Looking at the wavetable section in the MULTI section of the MBSID, it's looking that it's not possible to make the classic Matt Gray bass (listen to Dominator, Last Ninja 2, etc - a wavetable sound which starts with a high pitched noise wave an then goes into a pulse wave). I can make the basic sound I want (using Rutger's java editor) but cannot change the pitch of the noise within the wavetable without changing the pitch of the pulse too. Ideally, the noise pitch would need to be at it's highest pitch and static (so it doesn't change when played at lower keys). Hopefully I'm missing something obvious, but it looks like you can only select one parameter per wavetable in multi mode? Spent a looooong time looking into this last night (I'm not good at asking for help) but I'm totally stumped on this one so could use some advice. It's a lot different to the other wavetable's I've used (MSSIAH, Quadrasid, etc) and I can't get my little brain around it... Let me know if I'm not making any sense! ;oD Cheers. Tonka Edited June 13, 2011 by Tonka Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK. Posted June 13, 2011 Report Share Posted June 13, 2011 Hi Tonka, yes, you are right, currently only a single parameter is played in multi mode - i know that this sometimes isn't optimal, but at the time I programmed this I was a bit carefull by allocating resources to have more freedom on additional user requests. Resources are critical here, as the multi engine runs 6 independent wavetable sequencers in parallel... I can't increase the nmber of WT sequencers, and assigning WTs to instruments makes the usage more complicated than it already is, thats the dilemma :-/ I still don't know a simple solution beside of making WTs assignable to the instrument, would this be ok for you, or do you have a better idea? Btw.: does your sound work with the lead engine, or are there other issues? Best Regards, Thorsten. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonka Posted June 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2011 (edited) Hi Thorsten - thanks for the response. Well at least I know I'm not going insane and was trying to do the impossible... :op Not being a programmer, I can only really give advice on how I have seen it implemented in other applications (MSSIAH, P64, DMC and USA assembler on the C64 - Quadrasid, Hardsid and Goat-tracker on the PC). Of all of those, MSSIAH/P64 has the best ease of use in relation to the amount of options. Others offer more options, but are more difficult to use (Goat-tacker & USA for example). I'd be happy with anything you could conjure to be honest! LOVE that Matt Gray Bass y'know... ;oD Tonka *edit* Are you thinking that you may be able to allocate the 5 parameters for the other instruments to 1 instrument? That would probably be enough if it was possible... I haven't used the lead mode much at all. I really want to use the Sammich as a direct replacement for my C64 if poss, which is why I prefer the multimode more than anything else. :) Edited June 13, 2011 by Tonka Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK. Posted June 13, 2011 Report Share Posted June 13, 2011 well, thats always an issue to balance the features of a sound engine. Either they are limited but easy to use, or they are so flexible that only experts can realize good sounds with it (especially sounds which can't be created with the simple ones). I know the wavetable approach of many C64 based solutions, but none of them allows to control almost any parameter of the sound, e.g. also modulators like LFO/EG... mostly they only allow to control the pitch and waveform, thats all... I really wanted this, therefore it got so complex. And now I don't really want to reduce the feature set again just that it matches with other implementations... ;) Ok, I've an alternative solution which you maybe like a bit more: an option which enables direct wave control in addition to any other parameter at offset 16 Means: you enter the sequence for any parameter change (for pitch: #249) between position 0..15, and waveform is controlled from position 16..31 if this option is enabled. Are 16 steps enough? (from my experince it should) How many steps do you need if the sound is created with the lead engine? Best Regards, Thorsten. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonka Posted June 13, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 13, 2011 (edited) 16 steps would be fine - I can't remember ever using more than 8 TBH. So long as I can recreate most of the old school C64 sounds, I'm happy. :) I'll be totally honest though, I don't think I'll ever use any of the engines other than the multi, so you may as well put your efforts elsewhere as there obviously hasn't been much call for this from other users (unless some others would like to show interest here)? Previously I've mainly used wavetable sounds for the 'Matt Gray' Bass (which just sounds awesome when you sync/ring modulate with a triangle wave), arps and of course drum sounds. Being able to filter, ring mod and sync certain steps in a table can create some amazing effects (like the lead in Sanxion which starts un-modulated and then descends into ring-modulated/sync chaos toward the end of each note), but I have no idea how difficult that would be for you to implement! :o Thanks for at least entertaining the idea though! :) Tonka Edited June 13, 2011 by Tonka Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK. Posted June 13, 2011 Report Share Posted June 13, 2011 thanks for the feedback. It's a simple change, so it will go into the next release. Previously I've mainly used wavetable sounds for the 'Matt Gray' Bass (which just sounds awesome when you sync/ring modulate with a triangle wave), arps and of course drum sounds. Being able to filter, ring mod and sync certain steps in a table can create some amazing effects (like the lead in Sanxion which starts un-modulated and then descends into ring-modulated/sync chaos toward the end of each note), but I have no idea how difficult that would be for you to implement! thats possible with the lead engine. just step the WT with a LFO, start with a slow rate, make it faster than longer the note is played (in other words: control the LFO rate with an envelope) In the tutorial you will find a WT example which demonstrates exactly how to create such a setup. It shows how to apply the effect on a common pitch sequence, but you could also control ringmodulation/sync this way of course. :) And no firmware change is required to realize this ;) This sophisticated control of the WT via trigger matrix won't be available for the multi engine, because I want to keep it simple. Too many people complained about the complex lead engine in the past, but probably they never noticed that with the multi engine a much simpler possibility is available.... In other words: if you want to create special sound effects, it really makes sense to have a deeper look on the lead engine capabilities. Best Regards, Thorsten. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonka Posted June 14, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2011 Thanks Thorsten - I will make sure I take a good look at the Lead engine tonight and make the sound up. Am I to understand then that the Lead engine *can* be used as a multi engine somehow, but that the Multi engine is just easier to use in some respects? As I've only ever wanted to use the Sammich as a multi instrument, I've never really looked at any of the other modes. Guess I'll find out this evening anyway. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonka Posted June 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 (edited) Mwahhh... So I officially FAILED at making the bass sound with the lead engine. I'm certain it can be done (and I can see now why you don't want to make the multi engine as complex - phew!) but the killer for me is that (as far as I can tell), there is no way of assigning oscillators to separate midi channels and I'd like to make use of all the 6 available channels in my Sammich! Mmmm! BUT! I have thought of a couple if idea's on how to implement the changes we have discussed. 1) I managed to get something like the sound by using a combination of the wavetable switching waves (starting with a noise wave (step 0), then to a pulse wave (step 1) and looping on step 1. I then used the envelope to sweep the pitch from it's highest point (decay set to about 10) and adjusted the speed of the wavetable accordingly so that the 'normal' pitch is reached at the same time as the pulse wave begins in the wavetable. It sounds 'OK', but the sweep becomes very obvious when ring/sync modulated. Is it possible to add a delay parameter to the onset of the envelope section (or even implement a slightly more complex envelope beyond the standard ADSR)? Then I could pitch the oscillator as high as possible in the main settings and delay the envelope so that it kicks in at the 'normal' pitch at the same time the pulse wave kicks in on the wavetable? Obviously this would only work if there was no audiable sweep of the pitch. 2) when setting the oscillator type in the wavetable, I noticed that beyond the +63 setting there are 127 wave variations which *seem* to be practically identical as I cycle through them. Would it be possible to set some of these to higher octaves and even (esp for the noise wave) a static pitch? Just thinking aloud here - your solution sounds more complete, TBH! :) Regards, Tonka Edited June 15, 2011 by Tonka Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ErMangaver Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 Hello, +1 for more options in the wavetable department. If I had the skill I'd do a wavetable only edition of the software, you can call me a wavetable-aholic :) Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK. Posted June 15, 2011 Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 Adding the "W+16" (wave at offset +16 resp. 0x10 hexadecimal ;-)) feature was the most simple solution. It's now available in RC38 Note: as long as the MBSID Editor hasn't been updated (maybe tomorrow), the new function can only be used when the patch is directly edited on the CS. Example WT Configuration: Ins Par Spd Key Beg End Lop W16 1 249 12 o 00 01 o * [/code] Wavetable: [code] Pos (hexadecimal) 00 C-7 01 Ky1 ... 10 08 11 04 Best Regards, Thorsten. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonka Posted June 15, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 15, 2011 ...and here's the proof that it works. :) Gray Test.mp3 Cheers Thorsten! Hmm, what shall I demand next... :whistle: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK. Posted June 19, 2011 Report Share Posted June 19, 2011 Thanks for the demo! :) Best Regards, Thorsten. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkeye Posted June 19, 2011 Report Share Posted June 19, 2011 Sounds great! :drool: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Snoozr Posted June 22, 2011 Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 Don't forget we have a patch thread for user patches - hint :thumbsup: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonka Posted June 22, 2011 Author Report Share Posted June 22, 2011 Don't forget we have a patch thread for user patches - hint :thumbsup: No probs - I was under the impression that most people here used the Lead engine, but I'm happy to upload my multi patches if you want them. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
flip Posted June 24, 2011 Report Share Posted June 24, 2011 No probs - I was under the impression that most people here used the Lead engine, but I'm happy to upload my multi patches if you want them. :) Wow, great sound! I would also be very interested in your patches ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkeye Posted June 26, 2011 Report Share Posted June 26, 2011 +1! Am very interested in your "Matt Gray" patch! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 Long time Matt Gray fanatic here! Thats some excellent work man, I'll be investigating this thread a lot more in the future, and want to contribute once I finish my MB-6582... Which i have being putting off until now! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkeye Posted June 30, 2011 Report Share Posted June 30, 2011 go Smithy, go! sorry for ot... still very interested in the patch :poke: :flowers: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonka Posted July 1, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 1, 2011 Hehe - sorry Hawkeye! I wanted to upload a bank of sounds really, rather than just one or 2 patches at a time but I'll make sure I put the Matt Gray patch up tonight! There are 3 spare osc left for channels 4, 5 & 6, so I'll try to recreate the Dominator bass drum, and a MG PWM lead (maybe the one off the Bankok Knights loader?) just for completeness! go Smithy, go! sorry for ot... still very interested in the patch :poke: :flowers: Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted July 2, 2011 Report Share Posted July 2, 2011 A few patches would be better than no bank at all! See this post: That user has since died, and was last active a year ago. Some people stay here, others come and go, so i think the more regular uploads, even if theyre small, the better! :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hawkeye Posted July 2, 2011 Report Share Posted July 2, 2011 Yo and this f´up thread is tha proper place for uploading new patchez :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonka Posted July 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2011 Blimey - tumbleweed time in those threads! Promise I'll get the Matt Gray bank up tonight and start on a few other famous C64 musicians as a bit of a theme. I checked back on the patch original last night with the intention of uploading it but it was screwed. I *think* it's bacause I was saving to patch 1 which is possibly like ensemble 1 where you have to kinda leave it alone (?). Dunno. Anyway, I started re-creating the sounds again and saving to patch 2/ensemble 2, and it all *seems* to be saving OK now. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonka Posted July 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2011 Talking of :poke: ... Is this feature going to be incoporated into Rutger's Java editor soon? :D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tonka Posted July 2, 2011 Author Report Share Posted July 2, 2011 OK, I'm not uploading this to the correct patch thread just yet as I *think* I've found some sort of a bug in the multi mode(?). You can get all the bits and pieces here and maybe someone can confirm that it's not just me that this is happening to? OK - first take a listen to the MP3 - this is what the patch should sound like when playing the MIDI file (which is also enclosed). What I am finding is that if I load the oatches into the Sammich, they sound completely wrong (usually on osc2 the ring mod and sync are turned off and osc 3 is replaced by a noise wave)! To get it to sound like it should, you need to load the patch into MBSID Java editor and double click on the patch so that the editor screen opens. 9 times out of 10 the sounds are as they should be. If not, close the editor page and then double click again until it sounds right. If you then transmit the patch back to the Sammich and save via the front panel, it still goes screwy when you change select another patch or reset it. Any idea's what is happening here? Maybe the osc's aren't initializing properly somehow? TonkaMattGrayTest.zip Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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