enron_hubbard Posted February 19, 2016 Report Share Posted February 19, 2016 (edited) So, after much time ogling and reading up on Midibox projects, I finally decided to start going headfirst into it. Curious, though - has anyone used the Livid Instruments Builder series Omni RGB boards for their projects? Do they play nicely with DIN/DOUT/AIN/AOUT modules? These seem to be a solid source for building up a control surface, particularly because they're pre-populated with RGB LEDs and the same 10-pin headers that MBHP uses. EDIT: link to the aforementioned part: http://shop.lividinstruments.com/rgb-omni/ Edited February 19, 2016 by enron_hubbard Added link. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mongrol Posted February 19, 2016 Report Share Posted February 19, 2016 Ah they look good. I was looking around earlier for a duoled version of the adafruit trellis and was getting resigned to modding them somehow. At $20 I thought it was quite expensive until I realised the diodes and led's are already onboard. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
latigid on Posted February 19, 2016 Report Share Posted February 19, 2016 This is my take on the 4*4 matrix, prototypes ordered yesterday. It's designed for 2812 LEDs and Sparkfun button pads. In this way the matrix wiring is easier, and should be more programmable. TK. tried to PWM RGB LEDs with DOUT/DIN boards but the control was poor. It did work with individual DOUT pins, but then you have to dedicate a lot of modules to a single board. If the concept works I will offer PCBs in the future. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mongrol Posted February 19, 2016 Report Share Posted February 19, 2016 On a side note I'm making a synth from an Axoloti, a Teensy and it includes a Trellis button pad. The Axo is completely controlled over Midi. This makes me think that a BLM could be made using a Teensy that talks to the SEQ over Midi using the BLM protocol. Teensy + Sparkfun pads + RGB leds could effectively be an easier build for a most people (no smd) Would this be possible? I see the BLM uses more pins than the usual 2 pins for Midi and I can't find much about how the BLM is actually implemented in MIOS. Another question. Is a BLM with single LED's not possible or usable? Trellis's are very simple to build with and connect a 16x8 matrix easily over i2c. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
latigid on Posted February 19, 2016 Report Share Posted February 19, 2016 33 minutes ago, mongrol said: On a side note I'm making a synth from an Axoloti, a Teensy and it includes a Trellis button pad. The Axo is completely controlled over Midi. This makes me think that a BLM could be made using a Teensy that talks to the SEQ over Midi using the BLM protocol. Teensy + Sparkfun pads + RGB leds could effectively be an easier build for a most people (no smd) Would this be possible? There's a couple of problems with the Sparkfun pads, which is why (IMO) it took so long for a BLM solution to materialise. First, the size and cost of the components are quite large/high. This means that a whole lot of them will be very expensive, and the case will be larger, close to half a metre. The adafruit buttons are not only half the price but 3/4 the size, which makes a more affordable and playable instrument when a lot of them are stacked together. The downside is that the latter only fit 3mm single LEDs, meaning another solution had to be found. Hence the BLM PCB with reverse-mount SMD. Second, the matrix is not well set up/optimised for BLM. With some clever cabling you might manage to emulate the complex matrix and scan the buttons/LEDs with SCALAR boards, but this adds to the cost and turns it into wire spaghetti! This is a picture of a previous BLM attempt by @diwib, unfortunately I don't think it made it as we never heard from him after September 2013. Thus it's much simpler if all wiring and shift registers are on-board. A downside is that troubleshooting is much more difficult as there are many solder points to inspect. Thirdly, a crucial element to the BLM is the extra row and column + shift button. Without custom PCBs it is very difficult to realise this both in terms of the matrix routing and finding a mounting solution. In terms of SMD soldering, it is a bit of a learning curve, but almost all soldering is 1206/SOIC with a few SOT-23(-5). You remarked on Muff Wiggler that the ~300 diodes put you off, and you're correct that this is the most taxing part. There might be a more creative way to solder them in to make things easier, but for now it's an exercise in Zen Buddhism :) 33 minutes ago, mongrol said: I see the BLM uses more pins than the usual 2 pins for Midi and I can't find much about how the BLM is actually implemented in MIOS. This is just MIDI in, MIDI out and power combined into one connector. The PSU is pushing the limits for effective line transmission (some people have extra holes in their cases for external power) but it seems to work as is. I have an extra buck/boost regulator installed which improves the power rail stability. The BLM is just a "dumb" display as far as programming is concerned. It simply reacts to MIDI sent by a 32-bit Core and generates MIDI upon button presses. The ADCs are also working to transmit slider values and/or external CV into the SEQ. 33 minutes ago, mongrol said: Another question. Is a BLM with single LED's not possible or usable? Trellis's are very simple to build with and connect a 16x8 matrix easily over i2c. It's not really a BLM without duo-LEDs :). It could work but I would recommend a monome in this case. Also I2C is much slower than the matrix protocol used in the BLM. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enron_hubbard Posted February 19, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2016 7 hours ago, latigid on said: This is my take on the 4*4 matrix, prototypes ordered yesterday. Looks pretty excellent - if I'm seeing this right, this is designed for through-hole RGBLEDs, yes? With 3x headers to for a DOUT module and a single one for the buttons to DIN? So if I'm understanding correctly, you'd need a total of 3 DOUT headers for each 4x4 matrix, making a total of 12 DOUT modules to drive the LEDs alone (16*3 = 48 headers, 4 headers per DOUT). Part of why I was interested in the Livid boards is because, according to its documentation, you only need to connect 2x of the headers to their Brain module. No idea what the differences are in how CORE and Livid Brain address LEDs. I'm planning on ordering the boards and parts for one of the Livid Omni RGB boards, as well as everything for a CORE and DIN/DOUT modules, mid next week to get ready to test. Excited to learn this platform! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
latigid on Posted February 19, 2016 Report Share Posted February 19, 2016 (edited) 28 minutes ago, enron_hubbard said: Looks pretty excellent - if I'm seeing this right, this is designed for through-hole RGBLEDs, yes? With 3x headers to for a DOUT module and a single one for the buttons to DIN? So if I'm understanding correctly, you'd need a total of 3 DOUT headers for each 4x4 matrix, making a total of 12 DOUT modules to drive the LEDs alone (16*3 = 48 headers, 4 headers per DOUT). Part of why I was interested in the Livid boards is because, according to its documentation, you only need to connect 2x of the headers to their Brain module. No idea what the differences are in how CORE and Livid Brain address LEDs. I'm planning on ordering the boards and parts for one of the Livid Omni RGB boards, as well as everything for a CORE and DIN/DOUT modules, mid next week to get ready to test. Excited to learn this platform! Not quite, it uses 2812 programmable LEDs (5mm through hole) which are wired in a serial chain. This way you can cascade many button modules together and only one wire is used for the colour data. So you have data in and out, plus a 4*4 matrix (0.5*DINX1 + 0.5*DOUTX1) to scan the button presses. TK. has already demonstrated an animated rainbow of 64 LEDs this way. With your omni board it will be possible to address each colour, you just need 48 DOUT pins per 4*4 array. So this is 1.5 DOUTX4 modules, plus 4 pins to scan the matrix, plus 4 pins on a DINX4 module to scan the other axis. EDIT: okay, it looks like the Omni board has the LEDs connected in a matrix. So while you can address each one, I don't think it will work with PWM, for the same reason as TK. found before. If the LEDs are already time multiplexed then PWM becomes much less effective. The plating also appears to be HASL rather than ENIG. I would take ENIG every time because the surface is much more even and is less prone to surface oxidation. One other thing is that the buttons look to be singular and without guide nubs. In this respect, sheets of Sparkfun or adafruit are better to stay even. I don't mean to bring anything down, I've just spent a lot of time assessing everything out there. Edited February 19, 2016 by latigid on Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
enron_hubbard Posted February 19, 2016 Author Report Share Posted February 19, 2016 No worries on bringing anything down - tapping the community's experience and knowledge is exactly why I'm asking this kind of thing. :) This is all very good to know. I'll wait on the board you're working on and see how that works out. If and when you have good results, count me in for a bulk order. I was looking to try and use the Omni RGB board for a BLM 20x16, taking a similar approach to the BLM 16x16+X you've already developed. Thank you again for all the time you put into this project, and for being so helpful! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mongrol Posted February 19, 2016 Report Share Posted February 19, 2016 Thanks Latigid On. Since I didn't see much about the Sparkfun and Trellis boards I kinda assumed they weren't a goer. No harm in poking it once more to stop me embarking on a pointless task. I hope Diwib is ok. Perhaps he's in a cave somewhere still doing his LED's. :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
latigid on Posted March 4, 2016 Report Share Posted March 4, 2016 Pretty rainbows! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Psykhaze Posted July 4, 2016 Report Share Posted July 4, 2016 I'm in for 10 pcs :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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