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motorfaders


ward
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Hello, 

I received some fader modules from a scrapped digital mixing desk and I was wondering if it could be made into something useful, like a daw-remote.

That's how I ended up here and started reading some threads.

But the faders that I see being used are different I think to what I have ..?

They're Penny and Giles PGF3200/-/M/-/AX with a motor Faulhaber 2224U006SR

The only contacts are coming out of the motor, six wires, five black and one red.

I don't see how the desk gets any feedback from where the faders are?

Are these any use for an midibox NG ?  

 

Thanks

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Hi,

these look weird. P&G motorfaders should be PGFM3200.

And the motor should be top or bottom. Maybe a custom job for a manufacturer?

Do you have photos of the whole assembly?

Where do they come from? Which console?

It could be an older model, but it seems unlikely to me. I have a quite old P&G fader here, and it's already named PGFM3200 and has the same color coding than the more recent ones.

Those motors look like 6v DC motors so you should be able to drive them with MB_MF_NG module

https://www.faulhaber.com/fr/produits/series/2224sr/

Can you measure DC Resistance between different wires? With a ribbon cable like this one, red identifies pin 1. 

Cheers,

Thomas

 

Edited by totoRaymond
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they are an older series. PGF3200 series. there should be a cable like this coming from it

this is before P&G were bought by curtiss-wright

 

you could try emailing them to see if they have got the legacy techincal docs for the fader.

 

the 8100 series and other has a side connector

PGF3200_Series_Penny_Giles_Fader_10K_Linear.jpg

PGF3200_Series_Penny_Giles_Fader_10K_Linear_other_side0.jpg

PGF8100_Series.jpg

Edited by ssp
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Yes they're probably older versions, but as I said, i have another old version of P&G motor fader here and the one I have here are already called PGFM3200 (not PGF3200). And they comply to the last datasheet even if they have a different mecanical arrangment:

20200831_185927.resized.thumb.jpg.073e35

Waiting for more info on that...

Cheers,

 

Thomas

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thanks for the replys !

I'll try to give better information.

The desk is a stagetec cantus, this desk came out in 1994.

I suppose the faders are custom, I opened one up...

There is no resistive element inside.  So I doubt it's useful for the NG project.

I took some DC measurements :

1-2 = 2,5R

3-4 = 1K2

5-6 = 800k

3-5 , 3-6 , 4-5 , 4-6 when I touch my dmm it starts from +-420k and goes slowly down when I leave my probes on the contacts.

 

temp.jpg

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Hi,

This is all good information, we're closing in...

So 1 and 2 should be the DC motor as I expected.

Now the four others must be 100%V, 0%V, Wiper, and Touch sense. In that order IF P&G kept the same when changing design. (which they seem to be doing)

The other measurement don't make much sense though, maybe an error when measuring? 800k is really high for any kind of fader.

measure between each pin and the lever. One should be a short and the others should be open. That would indentifiy the Touch Sense pin.

This should left you with the potentiometer pins. So measure with different fader positions and report us with what you found. We're expecting a fixed 10k between two pins and a variation between 0-10k between 3rd pin and both others (one increasing while the other decrease).

Tell us what you found!

 

Cheers,

Thomas

 

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Hello

6 wire to the motor...should be a step/rotary counter...

1 hour ago, totoRaymond said:

Now the four others must be 100%V, 0%V, Wiper, and Touch sense. In that order IF P&G kept the same when changing design.

The OP just say there is no resistive element in the fader, and you can see there is no wire going to the fader !

You won't find any taper resistance here nor touch sens.

 

This is probably a rotary encoder/counter technology embeded in the motor

Stagetec do broadcast console, I suppose there is no automation on it but recall and fader flip function where the encoder is enough to send fader at visual position (this is a remote)

As there is probably a calibration routine at startup with such advanced digital desk, the drift or miss count of motor turn for precise fader position is not a issue.

 

As is it seem complicated to use this with midibox HW

What you can try maybe is wiring pin 3-4 and 5-6 (assuming 1-2 is motor...) to a DIN in encoder mode

and at least know how many count you have for a full travel, that data will give you fader accuracy and position.

Then find a solution to use this data in place of analog input (from a resistive passive element) to handle data that will tell the motor what to do.

 

Best

Zam

 

Edited by Zam
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Just now, Zam said:

Hello

6 wire to the motor...should be a step counter...

The OP just say there is no resistive element in the fader, and you can see there is no wire going to the fader !

You won't find any taper resistance here nor touch sens.

 

This is probably a rotary encoder/counter technology embeded in the motor

Stagetec do broadcast console, I suppose there is no automation on it but recall and fader flip function where the encoder is enough to send fader at visual position (this is a remote)

As there is probably a calibration routine at startup with such advanced digital desk, the drift or miss count of motor turn for precise fader position is not a issue.

 

As is it seem complicated to use this with midibox HW

What you can try maybe is wiring pin 3-4 and 5-6 (assuming 1-2 is motor...) to a DIN in encoder mode

and at least know how many count you have for a full travel, that data will give you fader accuracy and position.

Then find a solution to use this data in place of analog input (from a resistive passive element) to handle data that will tell the motor what to do.

 

Best

Zam

 

Well, that's also a possibility.

 

Now that you mention it, the second ref on the motor might refer to this https://www.faulhaber.com/fileadmin/Import/Media/FR_IE2-1024_DFF.pdf

Or rather an discontinued version of it? IE2 512 256 would then mean 512 or 256 impulse per turn.

 

In this case, you can't use MB_MF_NG to control them.

 

Cheers,

Thomas

 

Edited by totoRaymond
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Just now, totoRaymond said:

Now that you mention it, the second ref on the motor might refer to this

Nice catch !

Whit this I think we can definitely say this is a digital encoder implementation around a P&G "blank" fader

The fader is just use as mechanical device to translate rotary to linear actuation

We have here a 256 steps/turn version. Can't say how many steps it translate to the linear movement, this is defined by pulleys/axis diameter ratio, but we can expect more than one motor turn for a fader full travel.

Best

Zam

 

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According to datasheet, it's rather a 512 steps/turn encoder. ref is IE2 512 250 (i read wrong in the previous post). Assuming the datasheet didn't change in more than 20 years (which is possible with these kind of product).

Then you might be able to drive them with MidiBox NG, but you would need to modify the code i guess. My knowledge stops at this point though, I'm not comfortable enough with C / ASM...

 

The manufacturer of these motors also provides some control boards for them. Might be worth a look, but most of them use CAN or RS232 buses... so no direct compatibility with MidiBox.

 

Cheers,

 

Thomas

 

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OWKaaay, very nice find, that datasheet.

Things are getting a little clearer in my head, but just a little afraid.

So, do I understand this right :

- there is no feedback from this motor.

- The calibration routine sets the fader to zero, or to a known point.

- And from then on, the amount of pulses sent (for recall) or received (moving the fader) determines the position ?

Quote

What you can try maybe is wiring pin 3-4 and 5-6 (assuming 1-2 is motor...) to a DIN in encoder mode

sorry newbie alert, what's a DIN ?  

edit: I think I found my answer http://www.midibox.org/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=encoders

Din is a digital input pin, right?

I need to see this as a motorised rotary encoder ?

Quote

you might be able to drive them with MidiBox NG, but you would need to modify the code i guess

that will be very quickly beyond my abilities, I understand a little in analogue audio electronics, digital signals and programming is new to me.

 

So, I'm afraid this is not a suitable beginner project, :-(

Edited by ward
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Just now, ward said:

- there is no feedback from this motor.

 

There is, but not in the more usual form of an analog signal. It acts as an encoder, sending pulses when you move the fader.

 

Quote

- The calibration routine sets the fader to zero, or to a known point.

- And from then on, the amount of pulses sent (for recall) or received (moving the fader) determines the position ?
 

Yes, that's how these faders are used

 

Quote

sorry newbie alert, what's a DIN ?  

edit: I think I found my answer http://www.midibox.org/dokuwiki/doku.php?id=encoders

Din is a digital input pin, right?

A DIN is a module connected to a core module. It's used to interact with pushbuttons / switches and encoders. Look at ucapps.de, evrything is explained there.

 

Quote

that will be very quickly beyond my abilities, I understand a little in analogue audio electronics, digital signals and programming is new to me.

 

So, I'm afraid this is not a suitable beginner project, :-(

 

Yes I'm afraid it would not be an easy setup. But... you would learn a LOT of things in the way !!!! :grin:

To me at least, that's where the fun is. I'm currently building my own DAW controller, and i know more things than before i started. And i intend to keep learning and improve. So don't let anything stand in your way if you really want to build it.

And maybe you could contribute to the community this way. This way of driving faders looks very nice, without the resistive element, faders won't tear like standard ones, feeling might be better, and less noisy. I'm tempted to try and mod a fader to use this tech (but not today).

 

Cheers,

Thomas

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