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Pipe organ Conversion to Midi


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#1 John_W._Couvillon

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Posted 21 February 2004 - 00:33

Hello!
I am a new commer to the forum and am looking for help.
I am beginning conversion of a Moller pipe organ console to midi with the intent of using the organ keyboards and pedal board with Hauptwerk organ imulation software running on my pc.  
I can see application for the DIN modules and Core, but don't understand how to set each keyboard up on a different midi channel.
Any help would be appreciated.  Also, any help in the overall conversion process would be appreciated.
Thanks


#2 Scuzzle

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Posted 21 February 2004 - 01:33

Hi John,

You probably want to have a look at the MIDIIO128 project (http://www.ucapps.de/midio128.html). This will handle upto 128 inputs for you.

If you download http://www.ucapps.de...idio128_syx.zip and have a look in it, you'll find a file called "midiio128.ini". Once you have a look at the files it should all become clear.

It basically boils down to are lines in the file like this:
[pre]
##########################################
# Pin   # On Evnt # Off Evnt # Behaviour #
##########################################
   1 =  90 30 7F   90 30 00   @OnOff[/pre]

Which specifies the midi message to send out when the DIN pin is triggered and another when it's released.

To find out more about these messages you could look at http://www.borg.com/...ch/midispec.htm. And what you'll find is that Note On events start with any byte from 0x90 to 0x9F, where the low (second) nibble indicates the MIDI channel the messages is for, so modification of this nibble gives you a Note On event on MIDI channel 1 (0x90) to channel 16 (0x9F).

Hope this helps you a little,
Scuzzle

#3 John_W._Couvillon

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Posted 21 February 2004 - 07:59

Hey Scuzzle,
Thanks for the info.
As I understand it then, I need a midi64 core for each keyboard, each operating on a different channel.
I understand a little more about the pic programming, but have much to learn.
Correct me if I am wrong, but, the basic code for operation of the core is already done.  By editing the .ini file, I can download it to the PIC to customize the program to do what I need done, YES?
Thanks


#4 arumblack

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Posted 21 February 2004 - 16:49

that's right, except you want the MIDI IO 128, not the midibox 64. this will give you up to 128 inputs, you need one for each key. If you do not have more than 128 keys you only need 1 core., set it up as scuzzle described to get the different midi channels.I'm not sure how many keys you have, but if you have a dual manual and a pedal board, you may need 2 cores. This would allow for up 256 keys.(or whatever...)

#5 John_W._Couvillon

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Posted 21 February 2004 - 17:45

This is great. Getting some good stuff>
The Hauptwerk software is configured to accept note input on channel 1 from the pedal,  32 keys; input on channel 2 from the great manual, 64 keys; and input on channel 3 from the swell manual, 64 keys. Thats 160 key inputs.
As I understand it one core can be programmed to transmit  only one channel at a time, so you would need three cores just for the keyboards, each on its preprogrammed channel.
If I use the IO128, all key actiion would come in on one channel and the software can't distinguish between middle c on the great from middle c on the swell.
Hauptwerk also accepts switch inputs for different stops. These would be in addition to the 160 keys.
Am I off base?
???

#6 Scuzzle

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Posted 21 February 2004 - 21:06

John,

You'll need a Core running MIOS with the MIDI IO128 application installed for every 128 inputs you require, no mater how many channels you want to use.

The MIDI IO128 application is configured with the midiio128.ini file I mentioned previously.

A perfectly valid configuration might look like:
[pre]
###########################################
# Pin    # On Evnt # Off Evnt # Behaviour #
###########################################  
    1 =  90 3C 40   90 3C 00   @OnOff
    2 =  91 3C 40   91 3C 00   @OnOff
    3 =  92 3C 40   92 3C 00   @OnOff
[/pre]
This would mean (I'll miss out the note off's "Note On, velocity 0" for brevity):
Pin 1 sends a note on ("9") to channel 1 ("0"), middle C ("3C"),  velocity 64 ("40") when it goes On.
Pin 2 sends a note on ("9") to channel 2 ("1"), middle C ("3C"),  velocity 64 ("40") when it goes On.
Pin 3 sends a note on ("9") to channel 3 ("2"), middle C ("3C"),  velocity 64 ("40") when it goes On.

So as you can see, a single core can send messages for as many channels as you like. Your only limiting factor is the 128 inputs that MIDI IO128 provides.

I hope this makes it a little clearer,
Scuzzle

#7 TK.

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Posted 21 February 2004 - 22:47

Sidenote: in the meantime I know at least 3 people who are working on a pipe organ - so it definitely makes sense to continue the discussions in the forum and not via email, especially since Robin Fawell is planning to write a dedicated application for pipe organs.

I've informed the guys about this thread.

Best Regards, Thorsten.


#8 arumblack

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Posted 21 February 2004 - 23:43

ok, so you could use the remaining inputs on the second core for the stops.

#9 John_W._Couvillon

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Posted 22 February 2004 - 02:57

Scuzzle,
So I could assign pins 1-64 to the Great keyboard, 65-128 to the Swell keyboard on core no. 1, assigning the channel number "1" to the first 64 , and "2" to the second 64.  I would then have to add a second core for the pedal board which only has 32 pedals, plus 10-20 stop switches (on-off switches). All this with the midiio128 core.

On the output side. eventually I will add actual pipes to the organ which would be in ranks of 64. at this point possibly 5 ranks.  Could I daisey chain digital outs to the midiio128 or would I have to add additional cores to cover the 5X64 pipes?  Operating actual pipes, the PC won't be in the picture which brings up more questions.
In terms of hardwire, the organ console stop switches enables the particular rank or 64 pipes. Performing the logic with midi, would mean the a stop input would enable a bank of 64 outputs being keyed from one of the keyboards or pedalboard.  How could that be done with the midi cores.  I know that I could do it with relays, but would rather do it with progamming.
There are several other features to explore.  Thorsten mentioned transposition, but also:  couplings.  There are pipe ranks that play only from the swell keyboard, same for the Great and the pedal. the couplers allow you to couple ranks swell to great, great to swell, great to pedal, pedal to great, pedal to swell. There is more, but we can save them for later.
I understand how the .ini file for the midi128 is customized and downloaded from the pc to the core memory.  what is the operating system for the PIC itself?  How do you load the basic operating system into the PIC?
Thanks for all the info.
Thorsten,  I would appreciate communicating with anyone interested in going down the conversion path. There are numerous things to deal with, and having some brainstorming time would be great.  
Thanks,


#10 TK.

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Posted 22 February 2004 - 03:38

The MIDIO128 application is just the beginning for your project. This application is some kind of generic solution, but it can be used as template to realize much more complex tasks. It won't fullfill all your requirements yet, but if enough people are working together, and if at least one with programming skills attends the project, I see no reason why it shouldn't work perfectly with pipe organs sooner or later.

From your questions I'm assuming that you are not informed about the possibilities of MIOS yet. So, please read at least the MIOS Introduction first (-> http://www.ucapps.de). MIOS is the operating system, and projects like MIDIO128, MIDIbox64, MIDIbox SEQ, MIDIbox SID, MIDIbox LC, etc are applications programmed for this OS. You will notice that most of them are providing a user interface (LCD, menu buttons), it's only a question of programming effort (which won't be done by myself...)

Best Regards, Thorsten.


#11 robinfawell

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Posted 22 February 2004 - 14:06


Thorsten mentioned in a previous thread that I was interested in pipe organs.  I am in the process of converting a 1960' church electronic organ to midi.  I will be attempting to use the pipe organ emulation from the SCPOP project. I do not want the PC in the organ but hope to utilise the sysex files from the project to output to the the Roland  SC8850. (see http://www.scpop.de/)

The upper and lower keyboards each  have been wired to two DINX4 modules and I will wire the pedals to one DINX4 module.  The two keyboards will require one core module.

I have a fairly large number of organ stops to determine the organ sounds.  There will be about 100 membrane switches with integral LED's this will utilise the 2nd Core module and the 3rd module will deal with the organ stops memory banks, the pedal switches and the LCD.

The system will also require a large capacity bank stick to store the sysex files.

Regards Robin Fawell

#12 d2k

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Posted 22 February 2004 - 18:25

Hey

never used a church organ so i dunno if this q is applicable here - but how are dealing with veloctity on key presses? Or are u just using a set value?

Reason I ask is cos I'm converting a regular kb to MIDI - I've truned all the keys into switches - when not pressed they are in contact with the top buss bar, when pressed they switch and connect with the bottom buss bar - I was thinking a timer function could be used for gettin the velocity (convert the time taken to go from top to bottom buss bar and convert to a velocity value)...doable?

Best

Dan

#13 robinfawell

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Posted 22 February 2004 - 20:31

Electronic organ keys operate switches.  They are not velocity sensitive like synthesiser keys. There is a foot operated potentiometer or volume control .

Regards Robin

#14 John_W._Couvillon

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Posted 23 February 2004 - 02:27

Robin,
Thanks for the info.
Do you have a source for sound canvas modules, the SC88 or similar.  Without that or similar, SCPOP is not a good solution for me. That is unless you know some way around it.  Otherwise, Hauptwerk or similar software is my solution.
Are you familiar with the XG/XS convertion software. I followed a thread of links and read about such a program. You can find the link on the SCPOP website.
Is this a solution for the non SC!
Regards
John

#15 robinfawell

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Posted 25 February 2004 - 02:33

Dear John
I managed to get a new but obsolete! SC8850 which as you know was the latest SC module that that the SCPOP designers used.

Although it was about half the original price it still cost me over £500.  However it is a very comprehensive unit. Try Midi Classics. www.midi-classics.com email mcsales @midi-classics.com.  (USA) I bought the SC8850 in Aug last year.  The SCPOP sounds are really impressive.

I contacted the Australian who supplies the midi conversion software who intimated that  it was possible that the later sound modules from Roland would work.  I decided not to to take a chance as I thought at the time that MIOS part would be a challege and I was right!

Regards Robin

#16 John_W._Couvillon

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Posted 25 February 2004 - 08:26

Hello Robin,
I am tracking an SC88 and a SC55 which are supposed to work, both at a good price. I don't mind putting out a little money, but my ultimate goal is to add conventional pipe ranks all, operating on MIDI.  I would eventually like to supplement the pipes with additional electronic ranks either with Hauptwerk or SCPOP or some other software.  Peterson has some electronic add on modules, but are probably expensive.
Have you built and progammed your core modules yet.  How difficult was it to edit the .INI files for the unit? Literature from midibox sources  does not give rise to extreme concern for the process, but maybe i am a bit un educated in that regard.  Did you consider any other emulation software before settling on SCPOP?  What most influenced your decision to go with SCPOP?  
Do you know of any midibox members or someone outside of the group, that is interested in the conversion  process. In particular for a residence installation, hybrid electronic and pipe ? email addresses would be great if they are not members of the forum.
Regards,
John

#17 Guest_JimCook_*

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Posted 25 February 2004 - 09:11

Any interest in building your own pipes?  Of course it's not too hard to make your own wooden pipes but believe it or not, paper organ pipes have been made for centuries!  With a little work, you can literally roll yer own diapasons.  Check out "Organ Building for Amateurs" by Mark Wicks at used book sites or this website:

http://www.pipe-orga...s.com/hall.html

I was once a service engineer for Rodgers Organ company here in Hillsboro, Oregon.  Rodgers (now owned by Roland) has built combination pipe and electronic organs for about 40 years.

#18 robinfawell

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Posted 26 February 2004 - 01:22

To answer John I suggest looking at the following website

http://members.aol.c.../jeux1.htm#AUTH

I have built and commissioned one core module and several DINX$ modules and wired up one 61 note keyboard. They work. To change the ini file for the keyboards to tailor the outputs to obtain specific notes and midi channels is very easy.  To program the Dout pins to load control changes looks to be fairly easy, however I have to trigger a series of sysex messages destined for the SC8850.   I am thinking about this at present.

I dont know anyone who is interested in midi control of pipe organs proper.

Yours etc Robin

#19 Mickey_Sadler

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Posted 27 February 2004 - 17:10

Hi All,

Count me in on this also. I have a Wurlitzer 950 electronic organ I want to add MIDI to, and I would also like to do several other projects.

 1: control a new pipe rank from the Wurlitzer
 2: build a band organ with MIDI control
 3: drive a paper roll punch with MIDI
 4: build a paper roll reader that will output MIDI to other instruments.

You can see that MIDIbox, MIOS and MIDIO128 all will figure into my near future plans very heavily.

A couple of places to check for PC Organ projects is:
http://www.gbmuk.fsnet.co.uk/ for sound fonts both english pipe organ and cinema (theatre) organ, and http://meiers.net/sven/jorgan/ for a Java based organ program. Be sure to go to the resources page where there are several other PC organ program links and more soundfont links.

Keep me in the loop guys!

Mickey

#20 John_W._Couvillon

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Posted 28 February 2004 - 01:26

Mickey,
Thanks for the input.  Didn't know that there were so many programs available.
I am particularly interested in jorgan.  Looks like an extremely versitile program.  It looks like you can play any of the soundfont files from any one of the console programs. In other words. could you plan the cinema soundfonts with jorgan? I want to run two keyboards, pedal board and stop switches from my moller console. looks like jorgan when interfaced with midio128 could facilitate that. any suggestions?
In the text of the websites, the name uses the comment to "put the files in Bank XX" i.e. 25, 46.  What is this referring to?
Thanks for your input.
I am going to do some more research and reading and will probably address questions to the forum for your input.
Thanks again.
John