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John_W._Couvillon

Pipe organ Conversion to Midi

101 posts in this topic

Thorsten,

Ok, with the 10k resistor between the OE# pin and ground, If I use the inverse setting for the output on the organ stop core to get active low on an output pin,  and wire that directly to  the OE#pins, is the active low voltage on the organ stop core  off low enough to turn the driver on. also, and would the opposite state provide enough voltage to turn the driver off. If this works, then I can do all that I want to do with the stops.

I did not follow your comments about mios, etc. If the above works, then I am good to go with the standard program for ins and outs.

Lastly, I would much prefer to provide circuit sketches. What file type can I insert in these responses with the insert image button. .bmp, tiff, gif, jpg, ?

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Hi John,

I've modified the description about the output drivers to point out that the pull-up/down resistors have to be added to each  DOUT pin. I'm not sure if this was clear enough...

The OE# pin doesn't consume power - it's just a logic input.

Maybe you should draw a schematic so that it's easier to review  your plans.

".gif" should be the prefered format for drawings, ".bmp" or ".tiff" are not displayed directly by a webbrowser, and ".jpg" is normaly only used for pictures...

Best Regards, Thorsten.

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I set up bank 25 on my soundcard for the theater organ sound fonts as recommended.  To check them out, I loaded the  audioHQ software, using the keyboard, located the bank 25 to check out the sounds of the different ranks. All seem to sound ok, however the tibia ranks all sound more like a drumbeat on a particular pitch, rather then the typical sound of a tibia pipe.  Any suggestions why?

I have the same soundfonts in two parts in banks 22 and 23, and the tibia plays ok there.

Thanks,

John

I haven't encountered this problem but here are two things to check out.  

Have you run out of memory for SoundFonts?  There is a setting for SoundFont cache size.  Since you seem to be loading a number of SoundFonts, perhaps you ran out of memory before the Tibia loaded in Bank 25.

I don't think this is it but I did notice that if you inadvertently set Miditzer MIDI Out Device to "SB Live! Sw Synth" rather than "SB Live! Synth A" you get a buzzing sound rather than the SoundFont.

Also note that the Creative software loads SoundFonts into the A and B synths independently.  You have to load a SoundFont twice to make it available in both places.  I don't think it uses any extra memory, just uses up a Bank slot.

Jim Henry

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Thorsten,

you read my mind about the 10k resistors.

Question, are the low and high dc voltages of the Douts sufficient to switch the output driver on and off. if I attach the Dout to the OE# pins? I will draw up the circuit (in gif format) and post it.

john Henry,

Thanks for the input I'll check it out.

On a different note, I read a lengthy desertation on residence pipe organs, and the name recommended strongly that a residence organ not have pipes in the upper ranges, 2' stops and less. Seems the high pitch pipes overpower the space.  Any comments

Thanks to both of you!

Johnc

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Re: 2' stops

In my limited experience with my residence organs, I'd agree that the really high

notes can turn a loud passage into an overpowering, get out of the room

passage.  Of course with MIDI that's easy, sometime the organ sounds best

when listening from the other end of the house.  In general finding pipework

that sounds good in a small space can be a challenge if you are buying used as

many of us are...

I've been slowed in my MIDIbox progress, but hope to get back to it soon,

I've got some new ideas to try out.  More on that later.

                                                                                                    ---john.  

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John,

Thanks for the comments.

Personally, I can't see not having the bright sound of the higher pitch pipes.

I notice that the ranks visible on the picture of your organ directly behind the console. Do you have any under expression. Perhaps the 2' plus ranks could be in a small swell chamber with shades.

Currently, I have two cores constructed and 5 out of the 6 DINS finished. When that is completed I can hook up and run hauptwerk, or jorgan or jeaux, etc. That way I can at least practice and work on my playing while I look for pipes and hardware. In the mean time my console sits.

Regards,

JohnC

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question to anyone

on the Literature for the MBHP DIN module, under the heading Used Components , There is a suggestion that if you are using the midio128,"you may want to drive the pins "high active"which means +5v on, 0v off. In this case please solder the two red isolated cables not to 5V but to 0V (VSS)" What two red isolated cables is it talking about? Does this mean that the common side of all the 10K pull up resistons on the DINX4 must be connected to ground instead of 5V? and the common sode of the switches connected to 5V instead of ground? confused!!! Does this mean that the diagram for connecting switches which is shown on  mbhp_dinx4_16enc.pdf will not work for the midio128?

Help!

Johnc

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Hi John,

thats nothing to be worried about.

All MBHP designs are working with low-active digital inputs, means: a button function will be activated (or in your case: a Note On message will be sent) on a 5V->0V transistion. The Pull-Up resistors which are tied to 5V are used to have a defined logic signal (5V) when the buttons are not closed, otherwise the input would float and could toggle between Logic-0 and Logic-1 - uncontrollable.

MIDIO128 provides a function to invert the DIN to a high-active input - this would require Pull-Downs instead of Pull-Ups - but this is just an option and no requirement.

The default setting (low-active input) is the most preferable. If you don't know why high-active inputs could be useful, then just ignore this option ;-)

Best Regards, Thorsten.

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Hi John,

You are correct : all my ranks of pipes are currently exposed.  I do

plan to add a swell box some day.  Realize that at the moment it

is all experimentation to figure out how things work and to audition

the various ranks of pipes that are laying around here.  I've got pipes

I've never heard.  My priorities at this point are to get the console

MIDIbox translator up and running, install the blower in it's own

permanent home in the blower room,  add at least a 16' bourdon

so I can rattle the windows, ;)  and  get at least one rank of reeds

playing (probably an oboe).  I do like the sparkle of the high notes

but  a little bit goes a long way (at least in my music room with has

vary hard walls and the dimensions LxW are not optimum).  

Re: the MIDIbox, I'm still grappling with the addressing modes.

When I get those nailed in my brain it will be smoother sailing I

think...  ;)  

                                                                                         ---john.

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Question to anyone how wants to answer:

In reading different threads on all subjects, I read about presets.  I don't know anything about Hammond organs or B4, etc. So what are presets and how does this apply to the organ?

Thanks,

Johnc

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From the way Hammond presets are described, I believe that they are equivalent to a combination action.  Hammond used a bottom octave of piano keys with reversed colors rather than pistons to activate the presets (combinations).  I think at least some of the Hammond presets could be set by the user although I seem to recall it being fairly difficult.  It is a blind action in that the drawbars don't move but the piano key action is radio button like in that the keys latch down to indicate which preset is selected.  The low C is the preset cancel as I recall.

Hopefully a Hammond user can either confirm or correct this information.  

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Thorston,

On reply #43 to this thread you said something about a new board that you developed that would make some of the issues we are discussing easier. Care to share what that board is?  

Going back to one of your earlier replys, you indicated that I could use a DIN/DOUT to enable another DOUT that is dedicated to a full rank of pipes. You told me how to use a 10k pull up resistor on pin #oe to do that.  On a regular organ, it is customary to be able to memorize a certain combination of stops at the console, by memorizing which stops are set. the combination is assigned to a combination switch which when set, turns on the memorized combination. The memorized combinations can be erased or changed by the organist.

Any suggestions.

Take a look at http:\\geocities.com/midiboutique. The MSCAN module in particular.  Petrov is accomplishing the organ issues with his mdec64 module.  Everything he is doing should be doable with a midibox, I'm sure. Is it all in the firmware? Has Robin Fawell made any progress on his firmware for the pipe organ? How about some input Robin!

Thanks,

Johnc

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If you look at the section under Bankstick Programming in MIOS Programming you will see a dialogue between Thorston and me on storing sysex messages.

Once this is sorted out I will then tackle the stops (push buttons) to enable the transmission of these sysex messages to the Roland Sound Module.

The next stage will be to store several stop combinations in memory with together with preset fader balance settings.

I have made most of the Modules and I believe that most of them are functional.  I need to make a mock-up of the stops front panel next.

I will then add the coupling of the keyboards and pedals.

Also the addition of a 32 foot pedal stop.

I know in principle what is needed however I will need some help from Thorsten (or others) on the remaining tasks.

I am not attempting anthing that can be regarded as original,  merely trying to remove the PC from the SCPOP design.

Regards Robin

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Robin,

Thanks for the input.

I followed the thread as you suggested and had some difficulty following much of it due to lack expertise in programming and code.

What I would like to be able to do is to sit at the console, select a combination of stops, press a button just below the keyboard and have the core save the selection as a digital word. There would be a reset button to cancel the setting and a call button to call up the combination. Being able to save maybe 5 combinations with a readout to  sort thru the 5 would also be good. Any comments.

I know that code to accomplish is not currently programmed into the core, however, maybe I could get some help from someone.

Regards,

Johnc

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I am off on holiday for a week.  I will try to send you an email with my organ concept in block diagram form.  Robin

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Hello, I’m a newcomer to this forum although not to the MIDIO128 and MIDI conversions. My organ is a Rodgers Trio, 3 manual theatre type from 1975. Some years ago I was looking for a suitable MIDI kit and that’s when I found Thorsten’s excellent MIDIO128. My idea at that time was to augment the existing ranks with some sampled ones using a sampler. This required modifications to the MIDIO128 code to provide functions similar to Jim Henry’s Miditzer. For example, if more than one stop was on you had to send several “Note on†with just one key depression. Presently I’m using 2 x 128 (the old 16F version) inputs which is enough for the three manuals, the pedal and a few stop keys.

The recent developments in the virtual organ scene has made it possible to take the next step. My plan now is to use the Hauptwerk driver and Brett Milan’s Virginia Wurlitzer, http://www.milandigitalaudio.com/wurlitzer.htm . Then I can junk the entire electronics and replace that with a dedicated PC. I can also use that standard MIDIO128 code since Hauptwerk is doing the handling of stops, couplers and all the rest. The only change I made was to include a small analog to digital routine to read the swell pedal potentiometer and convert that to a MIDI Volume command.

The next logical step is to find a function for the combination action, similar to the one Johnc recently described. I will keep my eyes open.

Per S

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Schultz_po

Why not use an analog in card with your midio128 for the potentiometer?

What specification are you leaning toward for your PC to run Hauptwerk?  Sounds like you are sold on Hauptwerk.  Why do you favor it over PCproject by Mick berg, or one of the other soundfont based programs? I assume that you are using the midio128 for all the keyboard and pedal encoding.  Have you given up on your original intent to augment your live pipes with electronic sounds, do you plan to do that with Hauptwerk.  Thats what I originally set out to do, but have not been convinced that it can be done without complicated temperature control to keep the electronic pitches in tune with the pipes.

Regards,

Johnc

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Johnc

Here are my comments

Why not use an analog in...

It's not necessary. I have 5V on one side of pot, the other goes straight to the PIC16F to one of the analog in pins. Then I added some code to read and convert the analog signal to a MIDI command.

Specification for the PC...

I don't know that yet. Since I will use the Wurlitzer which is rather small (8 ranks) it's not so demanding. On the other hand it requires Hauptwerk2 which is very demanding. I have to wait until the new Hauptwerk 2 and Brett's Wurlitzer are released. A Pentium4, 2 Gb and 3 GHz should do the trick I assume.

Other Soundfont based solutions...

I can honestly say that I have looked at many ideas and solutions in great detail.

One very important thing for me is that I, when playing, can control everything from the console, absolutely no fiddling with a PC or an attached synthesizer. Most solutions today require that.

The main problem with Soundfont solutions is the limited polyphony, only 64 notes. There may be ways around that but not without problems.

To me the Hauptwerk has everything I need. It uses large samples of every pipe, not just a few, polyphony of 1000 or more and I can control everything from the organ console. I should mention that I have a registred copy and have tried several HW organs. Truly amazing in my opinion.

Yes, I'm using MIDIO128 for the keyboards, pedal, and the stop switches

To clarify, my organ doesn't have any pipes. It's a pure analog electronic organ. I can understand your concern about tuning but I have no idea how that problem is tackled. Is it a problem? How do the commercial companies overcome that? There are lots of installations with both.

Per S

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Per s,

I have not heard of hauptwerk2.  Didn't know that a new version was coming out.  Any details?

I have become a fan of of the theater organ, but have not found any sample files to use with hauptwerk. Do you know of any?

Yes, there are commercial devices to detect pipe temperature for adjusting pitch.  Very expensive. but workable.  The question is can a analog temperature signal be processed by hauptwerk to tweek the pitch of  the samples?  The midio128 could handle the signal as an analog voltage. Perhaps if Thorston Klose reads this he may have some comment.

Since this thread deals primarily with midification  of the organ, your experience and comments are of interest to many.  Please keep us posted with your progress. Anyone else out  there with comments, just jump right in.

Johnc

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I suggest that you look at http://www.hauptwerk.co.uk/forum/ . There you will find all the details. To my knowledge no theatre samples exist yet but there are two sets being worked at. Don't know when they will be available, maybe after the summer.

Regarding the MIDIO128, I'm thinking how a suitable combination system can be created. In principle it's quite easy, read some switches and send information to magnets. No MIDI involved at all.

Per S

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Thanks for the email address.  I  read for hours, which included some of your emails as well as many others that participate on the midibox site. Didn't know that it existed.  For my money, I think that HW2 will be super, but requires much more computing power.

All of the computers, midiboxes, soundcards, etc are all well and good, but alot of the quality of the final sound will depend on the audio equipment that produces the sound. Any recommendations on speakers, speaker enclosures, etc. I have a subwoofer with my surround sound setup, but don't see how I can utilize it for the organ unless I used the surround sound system for the amplifier, etc.  How do you hookup a subwoofer to a conventional stereo amplifier?

Regards,

Johnc

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I've created a new board so that it's easier for you to continue the discussions.

Best Regards, Thorsten.

Thorsten,

What new board did you create? I've been waiting since March to find out.

Regards,

Johnc

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on 03/28/04 at 15:35:14, Thorsten Klose wrote:

I've created a new board so that it's easier for you to continue the discussions.

Thorsten,

What new board did you create? I've been waiting since March to find out.

Regards,

Johnc

John, Thorsten created the Midifiication secion of the Forum.  That's the 'board'

that he was referring to.  I think you interpreted that as 'hardware'...

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ok!

Visualize the egg dripping off my face!!!

How dumb can one be!!!

I guess it will be a while before I graduate from "newcomer" status

Sorry

Johnc

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Johnc

I don't really have any recommendations regarding speakers. I have seen that some are using Logitech high end speakers with good results. My present setup is SB Live! and Creative 5.1 speakers, don't know offhand which part number but it's low power version but it gives decent quality but certainly not enough for an organ application.

At this moment I'm doing some extensive rework on my Rodgers. I have to reassign the MIDIO128 configuration. Right now I have two MIDIO128 to take care of three manuals and the pedal. I need to build a new to be able to handle all the stop keys. I intend to use Jim's Miditzer for now. Fortunately it is very easy to configure the MIDO128. The big job is to disable all the present electronic.

Now a question to the MIDIBox community. Since I plan to have three MIDIO128 chained what latency can be expected. With two there is no noticeable latency.

Is it better to feed them into a midimerger (3 to 1)?

If the MIDIO128 can keep up with the MIDI baudrate then there should be no problem. Account must be taken to the debounce function. Today I run the standard, 25 ms I believe (or is it 32 ms). I have the older version 16F.

The really big problem now is the weather, summer has arrived in Stockholm, +25C and sunshine, so I rather be outside than cutting cables.

Per S

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