ebay scum (fao: AXEL)

[pay_c]

Word!  ;D

[smashtv]

Amen brother Jim!   ;)

That post belongs on the wiki, linked from every occurrence of the words "non-commercial", "DIY", and "profit", and maybe a few others!

Best!

Smash

[Guest Vercengetorex]

Now hang on gentlemen...

I am currently in the process of building MIDIBox 64 systems for a couple of individuals that simply do not have the necessary time / skills to do it themselves. These individuals have specified exactly what kind of control they need, and how they would like it to be laid out. Are you telling me that I am in the wrong for accepting money for soldering, woodworking, and metalworking because this is a DIY project? I am not doing this as a "company", but as just a person with the right tools / skills that wants to spread the joy of custom designed MIDI control. I expect them to come to me if there is any issue with the controller in the future requiring software updates, or physical repair. I honestly do not see the harm in doing this, and if I am infact violating the GPL then please let me know...

Heres hopping you dont all hate me know....

Vercengetorex

[Screaming_Rabbit]

@Vercengetorex

If they are the initiators of the project and you're only doing the work for them and they know, that this is not your copyright and they are paying you for the work-time and not for the idea, then in my opinion this is: work for hire

On the other side I say: DIY ... like most of the forum members   :-*

Greets, Roger

PS: SmashTV seams to have a better knowledge about copyrights than me  :)

[Duggle]

hi Vercengetorex ,

I think the main substantive criticism of what has gone on is, that it is parasitic on the midibox community if there is a flood of support requests from people with no interest in building midibox stuff. This is clearly not your situation. If you support your clients so that they get what they pay for then all is well. If you interact  with the midibox community in this endevour, then I dont see how your different from a musician midiboxer who hopes to make money from his music or runs a studio or whatever.

I think it makes sense that people who build midiboxes whatever thier motivation, potentially contribute to midibox community.

On the other hand people who's only envolvement is paying for and using midi controll surfaces really have little/nothing to do with the welfare of the midibox community.

[moebius]

Hmm.. a bit sensitive subject at the moment..

But, Vercengetorex, you had the courage to come forward.

I dug up a couple of discussions around this issue:

http://www.midibox.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=concepts;action=display;num=1060957086

Check Thorstens post, for his views on these matters:

http://www.midibox.org/cgi-bin/yabb/YaBB.cgi?board=misc;action=display;num=1056712913;start=15

Bye, Moebius

p.s. "Say it out LOUD, I'm a DIYer and PROUD!"

[Guest Vercengetorex]

Thank you guys for your input! However I would like to hear more opinions from other users (you there Smash?). Moebius, thank you for those links, as they provided me with a good bit of insight on this topic.

The individuals requesting I construct controllers for them have all spent a great deal of time on this site, and have come to the conclusion that they do not have the time/tools/skills to complete the job (both in electronics, and woodworking). They have asked me to help because I have been pushing the notion of DIY controllers on the Ableton forums:

http://www.ableton.com/forum/viewtopic.php?t=12655&start=0&postdays=0&postorder=asc&highlight=midi%20controller

I am interested only in selling a service, not a product. As I mentioned before, these individuals have chosen what control systems they desire (encoder,pot,button style) and the layout they will be placed in as well as the materials that will be used in construction.

These individuals know who created the MIOS, they know where they can buy the PCB/parts kits. They have chosen the components, and they will order them. There will be no specification or component in these projects that they will not be directly aware of. They have decided what THEY want. I will simply rend the wood, and aluminum, and silicon, and tin-silver into their creative vision. I hope that as much as one must laud the DIYers attitude, they can also respect the craftsmans.

[goyousalukis]

Yes, but what happens when you move away, and their MidiBox stops working? They have no direct knowledge of the build process, and haven't learned the essential trouble-shooting process that is involved in DIY. Are you going to sell them a guaranteed service contract for 1 year, 2 years- forever?. They can't expect help from this forum, since as previous posts have said, they have not invested the time. If they dont "have the time/tools/skills to complete the job" then they should pony up the dough and buy a complete product from one of the many manufacturers. I think you are opening up a can of worms, but that is just my opinion. If they are friends of yours, then I would at least make them be involved in the building of the PCB's, and the loading of the software. Perhaps charge them as if you were teaching a skill. Just my opinion.

Justin

[illogik]

If they dont "have the time/tools/skills to complete the job" then they should pony up the dough and buy a complete product from one of the many manufacturers.

yes!

I am interested only in selling a service, not a product.

; but why are you interested; whats the motiv? ask yourself; are you doing this only so your friends have nice machines to make (better) music (in my opinion ok, as long as you support/inform them), or so you can earn some money...?

last words:

why are there copyrights: so peoples ideas and creations can't be stolen that easily by other people for profit. But when you don't copyright a product it doesn't mean that you say it's ok for people to just copy and sell that product; your just saying that it is not illegal, and that people are free to learn from your work!

marcel

[smashtv]

However I would like to hear more opinions from other users (you there Smash?)

My favorite new quote - "Don't poke the bear" applies here.....  ;)

<disclaimer>

This is nothing personal, these are only my views, blah blah blah....

</disclaimer>

I am interested only in selling a service, not a product.

That's a weak attempt at justifying your decision to make this DIY project a commercial project/product.  Does not matter if it's one MIDIbox or a thousand, you are still trading cash for a finished box.  Usually the only ones who argue this issue this far have already bought parts to produce thier commercial boxes.  If this is the case please don't let that cloud your judgement further.

I hope that as much as one must laud the DIYers attitude, they can also respect the craftsmans.

whoa back up here a second.  Ask yourself which you want to be, craftsman or cloner.  

I am a true master at soldering, I have a CNC that can cut front panels, all of the shop tools for woodworking, and the skills to bring it all together, just like you.  The massive difference in thought here is that I only produce parts of the MIDIbox, not a finished box or module, without exception.  This forces the end user to learn something, that's much more rewarding to me than any amount of cash.

You have been granted a revocable fair use license to build a box for yourself, not for others.  That's to keep this project around as a great learning tool, with a massive prize at the end for the builder (a working MIDI thing that is usually much more advanced than any commercial equivalent).

That said, I know that this community would welcome a new enclosure supplier.  Whether it's just a front panel with 7 holes or a full blown enclosure with wood sides ready to mount modules in and wire up.  That would be the correct path for a true craftsman.  Just be warned that you will have competition in the future. ;)

why are there copyrights: so peoples ideas and creations can't be stolen that easily by other people for profit. But when you don't copyright a product it doesn't mean that you say it's ok for people to just copy and sell that product; your just saying that it is not illegal, and that people are free to learn from your work!

Just to clarify the copyright thing here.....

The MIDIbox is fully copyrighted, every step of the way, to the letter of the law.  The difference with the MIDIbox is that the copyright owner has opened his plans up for the public to see, encouraging fair use (read up on the fair use laws, they prohibit anything but private use).  This is to spur learning, discussion, and community engineering on something he has created and enjoys.  

If commercial use was ever his intent, why would he offer it up to everyone for free personal use?

Again this is nothing personal, and if some of my statements seem sharp or angry it's because I have made this argument over and over, with each new person who sees the MIDIbox as a money opportunity rather than a fun-learning-community-DIY project.

Best!

Smash

[Guest Vercengetorex]

My favorite new quote - "Don't poke the bear" applies here.....  ;)

Just wanted to hear what the bear had to say.

<disclaimer>

This is nothing personal, these are only my views, blah blah blah....

</disclaimer>

No problem man, I am pretty hard to offend.

That's a weak attempt at justifying your decision to make this DIY project a commercial project/product.  Does not matter if it's one MIDIbox or a thousand, you are still trading cash for a finished box.

Well, yes and no, these individuals are fully aware of the MIDIBox project, the components involved, who actually did the design work, even how many AIN and DIN modules they need for the controllers they picked out. If they had steady hands, a soldering pen, woodworking skill, and time they would do it themselves. The programming of the units is up to them.

Usually the only ones who argue this issue this far have already bought parts to produce thier commercial boxes.  If this is the case please don't let that cloud your judgement further.

Not true in this case, and rather irrelivant as they will be ordering all the parts themselves.

whoa back up here a second.  Ask yourself which you want to be, craftsman or cloner.

I am not going to clone anyones box. I am using what Thorsten and this community have worked so hard to provide, and fortunately provide under and open-source license. I do not beleive I am selling a product because these guys are aware of where to get the parts, where to get the software, how to program it, and what it can and cant do. I am not giving them a "finished product" I am giving them the use of my hands, they are doing the rest.

I am a true master at soldering, I have a CNC that can cut front panels, all of the shop tools for woodworking, and the skills to bring it all together, just like you.  The massive difference in thought here is that I only produce parts of the MIDIbox, not a finished box or module, without exception.  This forces the end user to learn something, that's much more rewarding to me than any amount of cash.

Indeed this is a rewarding feeling. Helping a friend finish a MIDIBox is almost as fufilling as finishing your own. I know from personal experience after teaching my former roomate to solder, and fixing many a cold solder joint on his modules... That said, my friends that need help now do not live with me, and infact live several states away. If I could simply hold thier hand throught the production of these projects I would, but that is not a possability, and my time is worth something to me. ;)

You have been granted a revocable fair use license to build a box for yourself, not for others.  That's to keep this project around as a great learning tool, with a massive prize at the end for the builder (a working MIDI thing that is usually much more advanced than any commercial equivalent).

Indeed it is a great learning tool! It forced me to teach my former roomate a great deal about electronics! ;D

However Thorsten had this to say in a previous thread:

I've also the same oppinion about DIY like you wrote, but I think that I should also clarify what the GPL means: it opens the design also for commercial parties.

...the GPL says that - from the legal point of view - these projects can be distributed, modified and re-used for other projects. They could also be used for commercial products so long as the terms of the GPL are not violated. In fact this means: if a big company would build and sell MIOS based MIDI controllers, they would have to publish all the stuff which is necessary to reconstruct the complete product (with all it's improvements) for free....

Best Regards, Thorsten.

So I dont think I will be in the wrong here.

That said, I know that this community would welcome a new enclosure supplier.  Whether it's just a front panel with 7 holes or a full blown enclosure with wood sides ready to mount modules in and wire up.  That would be the correct path for a true craftsman.  Just be warned that you will have competition in the future. ;)

I would love to help anybody that needs an elegant wood enclosure for thier project!

Just to clarify the copyright thing here.....

The MIDIbox is fully copyrighted, every step of the way, to the letter of the law.  The difference with the MIDIbox is that the copyright owner has opened his plans up for the public to see, encouraging fair use (read up on the fair use laws, they prohibit anything but private use).  This is to spur learning, discussion, and community engineering on something he has created and enjoys.  

If commercial use was ever his intent, why would he offer it up to everyone for free personal use?

I am all about learning, discussion, and community engineering. I am doing this as a favor to some friends, and getting compensated or my time. Perhaps instead of $ I will have the simply buy me parts for my next MIDIBox... This will likely leave a bit less bitter taste in the collective mouths of the community. (especially you SMASH, as you stand to profit from it directly ;) )

Again this is nothing personal, and if some of my statements seem sharp or angry it's because I have made this argument over and over, with each new person who sees the MIDIbox as a money opportunity rather than a fun-learning-community-DIY project.

I dont see the MIDIBox as a moneymaking scheme... Simply as a great alternative to the low grade pro-sumer controllers that dominate this market. I just want people to have a human interface they can appreciate, both in form and function.

Best!

Smash

And to you my friend!

Verc

[machinate]

A few things I've been thinking about wrt this discussion:

1: I think one would have to set up one hell of a production line to actually make any *real* money building these controllers. How fast do you guys build your stuff?

2: It is very easy to stipulate to whomever you're building anything for that they shouldn't pollute a diy-forum, with specific questions best answered by the guy who actually built it. If my mechanic moves out of town, I don't start bugging the Fiat headquarters on how to replace my broken speakers  ;)

3: Where do you draw the line between diy and non-diy? Currently I can order a kit, with a preprogrammed PIC, all the components, also the knobs and all of that from one dealer. The software bits are already out there, of course, thank god for that. I send my frontpaneldesign to schaeffer and they do *that* for me. Schaeffer makes money building my design. What is the difference??? It is an interesting exercise trying to find out what is going on.

Of course I'm being the devil's advocate here, no offense Vercengetorex :), but the only difference diy and non-diy is x hours of soldering and assembly. I for one spend hundreds of hours, (I suspect it is even the bulk of my time spent)  PLANNING the build, and *if* I made a deal with Verc. I'd sure as hell still feel like a diyer!

I don't think anyone would feel like its not their project if it is handled like Vercengetorex proposes. Nor do I think he would feel very diy while doing it. He'd be a contractor. No more, no less.

Does the diy community lose anything? well, if people are willing to *pay* other people to solder their boards, they prolly aren't potential diyers. That money would be going to doepfer instead... If anything, the builder gains a lot of experience by building many systems for others. Experience that he's very likely to share with us.

Having said that I wouldn't dream of trying to make money of this. It's too flippin' hard. !!!

Andreas/

Machinate...

[smashtv]

Just wanted to hear what the bear had to say.

hehe.... :)

Well, yes and no, these individuals are fully aware of the MIDIBox project, the components involved, who actually did the design work, even how many AIN and DIN modules they need for the controllers they picked out. If they had steady hands, a soldering pen, woodworking skill, and time they would do it themselves. The programming of the units is up to them.

Ok, then -they- are doing PIY (Plan It Yourself) and hiring -you- to build it, ignoring the DIY nature of this community.

It's not DIY if the end user is not doing it themself.  The doing it part of DIY means you as the end user build it yourself, and there is no way you can call anything DIY that you pay someone to build for you.

I do not beleive I am selling a product because these guys are aware of where to get the parts, where to get the software, how to program it, and what it can and cant do. I am not giving them a "finished product" I am giving them the use of my hands, they are doing the rest.

Stop and think about this for a minute....Your -service- creates a -product- the instant you accept money for it.

Indeed this is a rewarding feeling. Helping a friend finish a MIDIBox is almost as fufilling as finishing your own. I know from personal experience after teaching my former roomate to solder, and fixing many a cold solder joint on his modules... That said, my friends that need help now do not live with me, and infact live several states away. If I could simply hold thier hand throught the production of these projects I would, but that is not a possability, and my time is worth something to me. ;)

I understand time is money, etc. but it's not your fault they aren't close enough to directly help, etc.  It's also not your responsibility.  It's their own to gain the needed skills/tools, if they want to keep it DIY and follow the intent of this community.

So I dont think I will be in the wrong here.

Not in the wrong by interpretation of the GPL, but it will have a negative effect on the community.  

You must understand that people won't release third party stuff, and the usual bears that live here won't release new stuff or stick around to answer questions when they know someone else is pocketing cash from exploiting thier designs.  

The point is when people take the time to post help for someone else here they should never have to wonder if they are answering a question from someone who has a bought box instead of answering a real builders question.

I am all about learning, discussion, and community engineering. I am doing this as a favor to some friends, and getting compensated or my time. Perhaps instead of $ I will have the simply buy me parts for my next MIDIBox... This will likely leave a bit less bitter taste in the collective mouths of the community. (especially you SMASH, as you stand to profit from it directly ;) )

I have to take offense on this, I invite anyone to sit down and do the math to figure out what it costs to do what I do vs. what I sell it for.  Clearly profit is not my motivation.

Also I will never knowingly sell boards or kits to anyone but an end user (or group of end users doing a bulk buy to save shipping or build party, these are encouraged!), as that is not the way to support a DIY community......

It has been said before that nothing is truly free, and that like everything else this project has it's price.  Thorsten set that price (which is learning) by declaring it DIY.

I have had many offers from people wanting to drive dump trucks full of money to my house to build them a box.  Some of them are now happy community members here, and have thanked me for pointing them in the right direction to learn something cool.  Some of them are now owners of whatever control surface that Guitar Center had in stock at the time, and then there are the rest who are afraid to try something new and learn a new skill and are still waiting for someone to come along and do it for them.  Those in the last class need to go spend $10 at radio shack, get a soldering iron, and practice on some boards from dead electronics.  Soldering really is one of those things that takes hours to explain but minutes to show.  It's not that hard people!  If you don't have steady hands (I sure as hell don't with all the sodas I drink and all the Marlboros I smoke) all you need is the edge of the table for a wrist rest.

Again no offense, just providing the flip side of the coin as needed.

Best!

Smash

[moebius]

...and fortunately provide under and open-source license.

And which part of the hardware is under an open-source license?

As Smash said:

You have been granted a revocable fair use license to build a box for yourself, not for others.

E.V.E.R.Y.T.H.I.N.G. here is copyrighted - Bloody quote large enough portion of my text and you're violating my copyrights.

The copyright gives you that right for the fair use -  at least here in Finland it approx. says: "A few copies.. for your and your familys private use"

(especially you SMASH, as you stand to profit from it directly ;) )

Maybe you should look at his post count.. Yeah, he's been very busy advertising here ;) But GUESS what? Let's see if you can point out who HAS a prior written agreement with a copyright owner to produce and sell these copyrighted materials..

I hope you got that right, buddy.

Bye, Moebius

[smashtv]

1: I think one would have to set up one hell of a production line to actually make any *real* money building these controllers. How fast do you guys build your stuff?

True.  But if I were standing in China instead of here in the middle of the US, I would have a totally different answer on this.  Hiring a factory to produce something for you is really really cheap these days, and almost every electronic part is exponentially cheaper in the pacific rim.

2: It is very easy to stipulate to whomever you're building anything for that they shouldn't pollute a diy-forum, with specific questions best answered by the guy who actually built it. If my mechanic moves out of town, I don't start bugging the Fiat headquarters on how to replace my broken speakers  ;)

This would deprive the end user of taking part in this community!  Also keep in mind that even though you won't start by asking Fiat HQ about your speakers, if nobody else can answer your questions/issues that you will eventually end up talking to Fiat HQ.  Even if someone local solved your issue, they did so with either training or direct help for your issue from Fiat HQ.

3: Where do you draw the line between diy and non-diy? Currently I can order a kit, with a preprogrammed PIC, all the components, also the knobs and all of that from one dealer. The software bits are already out there, of course, thank god for that. I send my frontpaneldesign to schaeffer and they do *that* for me. Schaeffer makes money building my design. What is the difference??? It is an interesting exercise trying to find out what is going on.

The big difference is that everything you bought was a part.  Even if it was a custom part, you still assembled the box yourself.  Definitely DIY.

If you were to buy a soldered module or complete box someone else did it for you.  Not DIY.

Of course I'm being the devil's advocate here, no offense Vercengetorex :), but the only difference diy and non-diy is x hours of soldering and assembly. I for one spend hundreds of hours, (I suspect it is even the bulk of my time spent)  PLANNING the build, and *if* I made a deal with Verc. I'd sure as hell still feel like a diyer!

Even though you might feel like it was DIY, it was PIY (Plan It Yourself) then hiring someone else to do it for you.  Anyone can put a design on paper for anything.  Actually building it is a totally separate effort, and in this situation, with the intent clearly stated as DIY by the creator of the project, not building it yourself should exclude you from the license so graciously loaned to us.

I don't think anyone would feel like its not their project if it is handled like Vercengetorex proposes. Nor do I think he would feel very diy while doing it. He'd be a contractor. No more, no less.

Right, a contractor going against the intended use of the project that has been shared with everyone with only one stipulation: DIY.

Does the diy community lose anything? well, if people are willing to *pay* other people to solder their boards, they prolly aren't potential diyers. That money would be going to doepfer instead... If anything, the builder gains a lot of experience by building many systems for others. Experience that he's very likely to share with us.

The DIY community loses nothing but the regulars who won't stick around when the signal to noise ratio here gets off balance, and it will.

There are many projects that are no more due to profiteering and other related issues, many time the principal of the project loses interest in having any more of his/her work exploited by others.

Having said that I wouldn't dream of trying to make money of this. It's too flippin' hard. !!!

hehe.....

:)

</rant>

Standard disclaimer applies, no offense intended.

Best!

Smash

[Guest Vercengetorex]

Alright gents... this will be the end of the discussion, at least from me.

I will tell my friends that the folks at ucapps are not interested in them having controllers unless they build them themselves.

I am sorry that I cannot spread the joy of custom designed controllers to them, but the big boys on the forum have made themselves clear.

Heres hoping that I havent offended too many folks around here, that I may become part of this community (loooong time lurker, first time poster). I dont suppose that should be a problem as long as everyone accepts that these posts came with "the usual disclaimer".

[smashtv]

Alright gents... this will be the end of the discussion, at least from me.

I will tell my friends that the folks at ucapps are not interested in them having controllers unless they build them themselves.

I am sorry that I cannot spread the joy of custom designed controllers to them, but the big boys on the forum have made themselves clear.

Don't let our discussion ruin your chance or thier chance for having some MIDIbox fun.  Again this is my opinion, but the only place(s) your plan crossed the line are where you solder the parts on the board for them (It's all intentionally designed with single sided boards to make it a good starter project), and in putting things together/assembly.  

Probably more of my opinion than you want is you should build the custom enclosure with your talent (craftsmanship!) and sell it and whatever else they want them -as parts- ready to put together.  For whatever amount you want to charge and they want to pay.

Remind them that they are welcome to ask any question here, a forum search will bring up links to illustrated soldering how-to guides, and I and others will do our best to help them through any hard parts.  There are no stupid questions here.

(you will however find some rather stupid answers posted by me!)

I know they don't think they can do it, but they can, especially considering the support this community gives. :)  

Heres hoping that I havent offended too many folks around here, that I may become part of this community (loooong time lurker, first time poster). I dont suppose that should be a problem as long as everyone accepts that these posts came with "the usual disclaimer".

Absolutely agreed! I hope all this discussion is not a buzz kill for anyone, if so I'm very sorry.  

but the big boys on the forum have made themselves clear.

hehe whoa back up here, I'm not a big boy, just a cranky bear that's been hanging around here studying the writings of the big boys for too long....... ;D

Best!

Smash

[Guest Vercengetorex]

Sorry for the somewhat grumpy post earlier... I was on my way to the gym, and that can sometimes put me in a bit of a mood. :-/

However I am now back from my workout and that infact usually puts me in a rather good mood (endorphines! :D)

Anyways... I will try and encourage them to get under way on thier intended projects themselves, and hopefully you will see them about these forums soon.

[smashtv]

Very cool.  Welcome!  :)

[Xanboroon]

I still have one remark about all these DIY/non-DIY boundaries.

It seems that the friends of Vercengetorex will not solder/wire the box, but still, they will have to customise source code to fit their "customized" CS... Lot of possible problems in perspective: burning the PIC (you all know what I mean..  ;)..), download code, hours spend to read the forum to find solution, etc... means lot of time spent on the project. So, they are in fact just skipping the HW part of the project...

And, for me even if it's not fully DIY project in their case, it make no difference with people that are not etching their PCBs.... People that are buying premade PCBs are also skipping a interesting part of the HW DIY project...

It's also a great fun to spent time trying to etch a PCB, miss a mirror option (Tu connais ca,hein, Lall ? :-) ...), forget the board in the chemical products, and not without forgetting a really boring part: drilling all these fu***** millions holes without destroying the board :-) , etc...

So, yes, where are the boundaries ?

I'm trying to build a midibox since 2 years know, and I'm far from the end point... I already spend twice the money of the equivalent price of a commercial product...

If sometimes during these two years I felt discouraged by the amount of work and be tempted to buy premade PCBs, I always felt that when the project will be finished and that a friend will see the "beast" saying "Wow ! Where did you buy this wonderful box ?".

I can only answer proudly: "I made it myself..." if I really tried to make the maximum myself in the project.... Including etching PCB, soldering parts, frontpanel, case, etc...

If buying premade PCBs or asking a friend to solder the box can help theses guys to enter ("by the small door"- french expression...) the great community of the DIY, this is not a problem for me....

Xanboroon

PS: Just that I will feel more confortable if Vercengetorex  ask something else than money to these guys: A good restaurant, a "beer" party or something else would be more appropriate to fit the DIY spirit...

[Sephult]

Again I believe there is no argument and that the only reply to anything involving copyright or right/wrong issues is to................................................................

                                  (DIY)

;D

[moebius]

Welcome, Vercengetorex!

And sorry, We can be a more or less harsh while defending Midiboxes DIY nature. But that's because we really want to scare away any potential commercial exploiters of a midibox. That's a real danger. (Think what a job has Thorsten done.. He could have gone the other way, and licence MB to some manufacturer.)

Sephult:

Again I believe there is no argument and that the only reply to anything involving copyright or right/wrong issues is to................................................................

         (DIY)

Well.

I got an idea last night.

Smash, Thorsten.

What about writing a Midibox Hardware platform licence?

That would be appended to each .pdf, and would point out exactly, what MB Hardware Platform is intended for, and what your allowed to do with it.

It would clear things up a bit, maybe?

Bye, Moebius

[smashtv]

I obviously can't make an unbiased response to the question of is it still DIY if you buy a pre-made PCB. ;)

I see the PCB (even though it's custom made for this) as just another part, like the capacitors, resistors, etc.

Please keep in mind that my definition of DIY and how it applies to the MIDIbox was (and still is) formed by the opinions of TK and this community.

A purist definition if DIY is different for everyone.  I have most of the equipment (and all of the knowledge) to forge, machine, heat treat several different metals here at my disposal.  

I also have the knowledge, equipment and a good catalyst formula for making capacitors.

So if I built myself a preamp in a Par-Metal store bought case, using Blackgate capacitors, is it still DIY?  From a purist viewpoint the answer is no because I have the ability to do all of that myself.

If the same pre was built by someone who had no clue what the guts of a cap are made from, would the answer change?

Again no offense, this exercise in knowing where the DIY line is helps keep everyone on the same page -myself included-.  :)

Best!

Smash

[smashtv]

And sorry, We can be a more or less harsh while defending Midiboxes DIY nature. But that's because we really want to scare away any potential commercial exploiters of a midibox. That's a real danger. (Think what a job has Thorsten done.. He could have gone the other way, and licence MB to some manufacturer.)

hehe no doubt Moebius, nothing makes me show my teeth faster or raises my blood pressure like any perceived threat to this community.  Years of exposure to the typical American attitude has given me a quick fuse that interferes with producing productive dialog.  ;)  (not aimed at anyone here, I live in the middle of redneck hell and the price I pay for living here is constant exposure to the least-common-denominator, welfare-supported, typical money hungry credit-maxed stupid American attitude.  Of course there are good people here too, but they seem less common because they usually are not trying to proudly show off thier lack of IQ.)   ;)

Whoop sorry about that, I need to hold my mouth for war and not let those little rants slip out here.....  ;D

I got an idea last night.

Smash, Thorsten.

What about writing a Midibox Hardware platform licence?

That would be appended to each .pdf, and would point out exactly, what MB Hardware Platform is intended for, and what your allowed to do with it.

It would clear things up a bit, maybe?

Bye, Moebius

I think its a Stellar idea, TK what do you think?

Anyone know the best tool (any platform) to easily open a pdf, and make an addition?

Best!

Smash

[Guest Vercengetorex]

Smash, where are you located? I currently live in Montana myself, but I am from Ohio, so I know precisely what you mean...