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Skunk

Mackie Control C4 Clone

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Does anybody have detailed informations about the Mackie Control C4 MIDI implementation? I tried already to find a pdf users guide on the web, but no success yet.

Why? Control C4 clone as add-on to the LC24. Just evaluating...

Cheers,

Andreas

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that would be really interesting, but I doubt that mackie will do the same mistake again and release specs of the protocol helping other companies and hobbyists to build cheap clones. with the c4 they claim a perfect integration in logic 7 and sonar (coming soon). I think the only way to do anything would be to reverse engineer those interface plug-ins, but I don't know if this would be possible at all. would be cool if you knew a guy at twelve-tone or another company supporting c4. maybe someone more experienced can say something about this topic.

cheers

rambinator

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If the C4 was routed with a midi monitor program between it and the application you would see the interaction between it and the host.

Reverse engineering would not be that hard, but you would have to have a C4 unit to run the tests.

You could record a midi file of all the midi events transfered between the application and the C4 and decipher the protocol later, even.

cheers

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you're right. so anyone going to buy one of these babies for educational purposes?  ;D

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Thanks guys! The reverse engineering idea was my first thought, too. But a "dry swimmer" pdf version of the C4 MIDI implementation eliminates the need for donations from you guys for "educational purposes" ;D and saves a lot of money. I'll start to search for a C4 owner...

Best Regards,

Andreas

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Good luck! And keep us informed. It seems to cost the same as the LCU.

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Cakewalk released their maintainance-update 4.02 for sonar which includes the controlsurface-plugin for C4. Maybe somebody who who has sonar fullversion can find out something about this. maybe the protocol is similar to LC. At least one could find out what the host is sending as query...

cheers

rambinator

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How is it going with the project? Any friendly Mackie C4 owners found yet?  ;) A C4 integrated in an LC16 box could be a nice project for the summer holiday...

-W-

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Hi,

well, I had a long discussion on the Frankfurt Music Exhibition two weeks ago -- directly with a Mackie service guy.  First surprising answer on my question: shouldn't be a problem to get the C4 midi implementation doc.! He pointed me to his collegue in the US who's responsible for the Control and C4, I contacted him, still waiting for feedback.

I din't succed for all other channels that I contacted till now. Nobody is using a C4 -- or obtains the documentation.

BTW: I also checked in Frankfurt with Steinberg people for a future implementation of the C4 in Cubase SX. Result: no way, legal issues with Mackie. Logic is the prefered C4 DAW SW.

Cheers,

Skunk

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First surprising answer on my question: shouldn't be a problem to get the C4 midi implementation doc.! 

That is indeed very surprising. I hope that it's not the typical "Messe-Blahblah" (don't know the english expression).

[bTW: I also checked in Frankfurt with Steinberg people for a future implementation of the C4 in Cubase SX. Result: no way, legal issues with Mackie. Logic is the prefered C4 DAW SW.

/quote]

Hmmm. Very strange, I thought they want as many sequencers as possible to support the c4 and Logic doesn't have any exclusive licenses as cakewalk also supports it

greetings

rambinator

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Well, I got more details regarding legal issues, but there is a limit to "broadcast" all these informations since it's going deep inside the companies, including the former Emagic. Fact is: there are legal limitations (ref the C4) between Mackie and Steinberg, and both, Steinberg as well Mackie, confirmed this on the exhibition. But the information handling is very strange and pretty invisible as soon as you start asking direct questions. Everybody tells you a bit, but not the whole truth -- either because they just don't know, or because they don't want. At the end of the day I don't take care about all this "Messe-Blahblah" -- as long as I get the C4 MIDI doc from somebody.  ;)

Cheers,

Skunk

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At the end of the day I don't take care about all this "Messe-Blahblah" -- as long as I get the C4 MIDI doc from somebody.  ;)

But what is that information worth, if you can build a nice box, but  it doesn't have any advantage over a Behriger Box, since you

can't use the displays seamless.

The website of Mackie states "more coming soon" so let's stand up and shout in direction of Mackie and Steinberg (yes, I'm a Cubase user)

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what do you mean with

it doesn't have any advantage over a Behriger Box, since you

can't use the displays seamless.

?

If they won't support it, i thought you can't use it at all with cubase... am I wrong?

Can you use the mackie control universal with software which doesn't support it (like orion platinum),

acting as a normal midi-controller like the behringer bcf2000? i thought that it something completeley

different (regarding the protocol, which can of course be also emulated by the bcf)?

as a midibox lc user you can of course upload a different firmware...

yet another reason not to go with steinberg :)

greetings

rambinator

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You are right, the box would be fully useless without support.

But the PIC's have Flash-Memory today so you could burn another fimware into it (maybe a Behringer clone uuuuaaaahhhh.....)

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no need to reburn. thanks to mios you can upload the app via sysex.

what project are you planning. the midibox64e could be the app for you to go with.

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no need to reburn. thanks to mios you can upload the app via sysex.

what project are you planning. the midibox64e could be the app for you to go with.

Hehe, beside on the desk is a small industrial controller, which should learn the MODBUS-protocol and has a 18F452 as brain. I use a serial bootloader for my experiments.......  ;)

The real advantage of a C4 would be the Display, so you don't need to remember the layout of the controllers for all the settings.

But if you can't transfer the data from the DAW-application into the box automatically, it's useless in my opinion.

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Hi guys,

Anyone got further into the Mackie C4 project?

-W-

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Unfortunately not! I tried several sources (incl. Mackie itself) and failed. The C4 seems to be one of the best secrets in the world...  :P

Did nobody in the MIDIboc commuity have access to a C4, or have the Logic SW drivers, documentation etc.???

Cheers,

Skunk

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Did nobody in the MIDIboc commuity have access to a C4, or have the Logic SW drivers, documentation etc.

... well I could order one for evaluation without problems. At the time I'm just too buissy  to do all the read out of the data and for me it's not first priority since Sequoia doesn't support the C4.  :(

Greets, Roger

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I found this...

http://www2.midia.co.jp/downfiles/pdf/C4_manual.pdf

...but there`s a problem anyway - my Japanese skills are a bit rusty... ;) I don`t even know if this manual helps us with the MIDI implementation but maybe it`s worth trying.

So, any guys here to translate this?

-W-

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Hi W,

just tried to view it, but unfortunately my acrobat reader cannot decrypt the file. Any idea?

Cheers,

Skunk

P.s. My collegue sitting next door is a chinese guy...  8)

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Hi W,

just tried to view it, but unfortunately my acrobat reader cannot decrypt the file. Any idea?

Cheers,

Skunk

P.s. My collegue sitting next door is a chinese guy...  8)

... you have to download the additional fonts... it worked on mine V7.0.3

Greets, Roger

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Just had a look at it and I don't think it would be of any help to translate this.

As I allready said, I don't think they will reveal the protocol to the public or behringer

scavengers would be at the place immediately.

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Just some information for you guys about how mackie views what they think is their protocol and their reaction to other companies reverse engineering their hardware.  Of course we all know that Mackie did develop Logic Control or MCU.  Their dispute with eMagic is widely known - but I am curious how exactly they settled in the end.  DOES Mackie own the MCU protocol?

E-MAIL from MACKIE:

Dan Steinberg, Tracktion product manager here.

Unfortunately, the sysex details of the Mackie Control are not an open

standard and are not publicly available, they represent a lot of hard work

and intellectual property that we need to protect carefully.

It is true that many other companies use the MCU's code in their products.

When it is software companies adding MCU support in their DAWs, its always

been a result of us licensing the code to them and working with them to make

it happen. When it's competing control surface companies, it's usually been

more of a case of them reverse engineering the code and using it without our

knowledge or cooperation.

If [a hardware company] is interested in having their controllers emulate an MCU, we could

look into the possibility of working with them. The bets way to make this

happen is to have an official [hardware company's] representative contact myself or our

business development manager, Tony Rodrigues (tonyrodrigues@mackie.com). We

can then discuss with them their goals, and then we can evaluate where we

want to go from there.

Thanks very much!

Dan Steinberg

Recording Product Manager

dan.steinberg@mackie.com

760-721-7177 (desk)

760-672-0905 (cell)

x7021 from within Mackie

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it is all sysex though right?..

and the c4 can be part of an MCU/LC mixer group or stand on its own

I know there are more features on the LC, but the features that really count for me are knob settings and LCD indicators.

If it's possible to clone that part of it, make a box that can listen to the output of Logic or any LC compatable DAW and then update its LEDs and LCDS and transmits is pot values and switch banks....  oh and maybe send cursor position

that would pretty much do it. 

if someone can figure that out that would be f<n rad.

sleeper

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