bodimix Posted April 3, 2005 Report Share Posted April 3, 2005 It's always intresting how the celebrities in a given area push a technology to the public. Usually it's something thats been around for a while but recieves very little attention until someone famous strats to use it, or confronts the press with it...http://feed.proteinos.com/item/2665So enter the age of Live and the control interface... the new age of the DJ (or something).Take it away Sasha! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodimix Posted April 3, 2005 Author Report Share Posted April 3, 2005 All grumbling aside, it does look like a very nice controller albeit a bit bulky. I wonder if this Maven fellow designed it around a MIDIBOX spec? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smashtv Posted April 4, 2005 Report Share Posted April 4, 2005 Ok, tame the anti-talent sasha flames for a minute, I need links to any and all info/press releases/etc. regarding "his" maven controller.I got an email many moons ago from a guy "building a controller for sasha", and continued contact via email to sell him some boards and kits, and to help them through some technical issues during the build.My thinking was this would be a great thing to have some world famous people using the MIDIbox, so I helped and treated them with the same attitude I have with any customer......Now that it's done and has it's own press release(s), I find no mention of MIDIbox or TK, and I have a problem with that while I watch sasha take full credit in the interviews for the controller. I know who's work it is, now you know who's work it is, now help me let everyone drooling over or bashing sasha's "maven" box know. Surely this is just an oversight, so let's correct it! ;DI have three goals here:1) The ableton community should know that "maven" is a MIDIbox....Anyone a local there?2) To let the whole industry know that "maven" is built on an open-source design, so that the manufacturers contemplating the new sasha controller lineup for guitar center will know that it's a DIY freebie for anyone who wants it, and commercial production is prohibited.3) To help sasha and his builders better comply with the license by releasing a ready to go "maven" app. and docs (you know, the whole sharing your improvements with the community thing, good thing we can help them with that!)Thoughts/questions/comments?Best!Smash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arumblack Posted April 4, 2005 Report Share Posted April 4, 2005 Do a google search for sasha maven and follow the links from the original posting above. I made a list but i just hit BACK accidentally and lost my post.... seems to be on a lot of forums, people talking and such. Didn't read one mention of midibox or TK or who actually built the controller. Sasha just refers to "the right people". It seems like he never heard of midibox. He apparently paid a large sum for this thing, one article sayaing almost as much as he gets fora two hour set, and you know he gets alot. The box does look like it could be a midibox, though one without an LCD. Doesn't really even look all that special to me. What a fool, he coulda had so much better, so much cheaper.(though the case looks like it may have cost a bit). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smashtv Posted April 4, 2005 Report Share Posted April 4, 2005 Ok, if that last post did not get your attention, maybe this quote from 365 mag will.Catch the unveilling of the new Maven controller at the first of Sasha's new Fundacion nights at Avalon in Los Angeles this Saturday (01.29.05). Don't expect to find one in your local music supplies for quite some time, but keep and eye on 365mag for further developments into the world of Laptoprock!or this quote from tranceaddict:>Originally posted by webbie>From what ive read Sasha didnt build it, he gave whatever company that produced it his thoughts on what he needed, so its really >not Sasha that owns the rights, he just owns the only piece. Thats what ive read anyways.I think it was M-AudioJust Google "sasha maven" and see for yourself.......Best!Smash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smashtv Posted April 4, 2005 Report Share Posted April 4, 2005 He apparently paid a large sum for this thing, one article sayaing almost as much as he gets for two shows, and you know he gets alot.Link please!The people he paid to do this need a warning from my lawyers about the license....just in case they have plans to mass produce or get cloned by behringer.Even though it's a rather weak CS layout, there is now an instant market for it, so either we release it for free and get the word out or a company does it and gets rich, and could later use money (trash patents/litigation) to own the design by force.I really think it is important to let everyone know "maven" = MIDIbox, especially if these highly paid builders did not let even Sasha know. There is no "might be a MIDIbox" about it, unless they were able to completely redesign this controller in the couple of months between when I talked to them last and it's debut. It -is- a MIDIbox until someone shows me pictures of the guts without boards from my shop or even a PIC18F452......I had no idea helping these guys would turn out like this, I should have told them to get bent like I do all the other profiteers.Comments?Smash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TL Posted April 4, 2005 Report Share Posted April 4, 2005 http://musicthing.blogspot.com/2005/03/sashas-new-ableton-controller.htmlhttp://www.innerphaseny.com/view_50.htmlhttp://www.365mag.com/index.php?pg=full&idnews=2337http://proaudio.zicos.com/news.php/n/108623/http://www.createdigitalmusic.com/index.php?option=com_content&task=view&id=316&Itemid=44These are the first google hits... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moebius Posted April 4, 2005 Report Share Posted April 4, 2005 Now, Smash - can you squeeze the truth out from the guy, who build this?A good thing is, it's been blogged and commented pretty much, because "..at least I've seen many "mavens" at the midibox gallery, but we prefer 'em called Midiboxes.."Bye, Moebius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arumblack Posted April 4, 2005 Report Share Posted April 4, 2005 Link please!This is the site with that claim on it: edit, I misquoted, it says as much as he gets paid for a two hour set, which is still waaaayyyy to much!http://musicthing.blogspot.com/2005/03/sashas-new-ableton-controller.htmlalso listed above i see. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moxi Posted April 4, 2005 Report Share Posted April 4, 2005 hi ,Sasha s first out of the gate with this expensive custom job, but with new cheaper, plastic options for us poorer folks, you can bet this is a trend that will spread fast. I m on the slate to chat with Sasha when he s back in NYC; stay tuned.Is this guy tryin to "commercialize" his controller?!We will stay tuned ,that sure!!!!quote taken from this page :http://proaudio.zicos.com/news.php/n/108623/ Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdutcher Posted April 4, 2005 Report Share Posted April 4, 2005 SmashTV: as always, my hat goes off to you. i'm behind you all the way on this. i have to say that it's very comforting having such a strong force supporting this community. please keep us updated and let us know if there's anything we can do to help.james Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodimix Posted April 4, 2005 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2005 On a side note...I believe that this was a one off as a personal controller for Sasha. Having said that, the builder himself was not mentioned.As far as him mentioning that it's built around a DIY tech found on the internet, I'm not so sure it's breaking any rules or laws... of course this would change if they were to try and mass produce it. Then I can see being angry, or asking for royalties or such.Now one other thing to consider... if you were to state in these 'articles about Sash'a something like "The Maven was built from a DIY kit that you can find on the internet at www.midibox.org." Think for a moment how flooded this place would get... and what type of people it would be flooded with.I'm just guessing that you would have about 1,000 new memebers asking in unison "Tell me how to make the Maven!", not intrested in furthering the community, pushing boundaries, but rather being like Sasha.You might want to consider it a blessing that MIDIBOX wasn't mentioned in these mags. The best thing to do might be to contact the builder and just tell him it would be nice for him to refrence MIDIBOX if he is interviewed by any tech magazines, hobby mags, or media that targets gearheads, or people that could offer this place a welcomed contribution. In addition, explain to him that as a builder, it's his responceability to educate the community on his endevors (ie. if you take, you should give back). Tell him that it would be nice if he posted the project here and explained a bit about his methods, especially where he found his parts and case design, areas where this box appears to excell.The MIDIBOX project is obviously not looking for fame, nor should it. If the MIDIBOX design ever gets mass produced (which they should not) then there is reason to want quotes in the big "DJ" mags. I happen to like the underground spirit here, there is a great community of helpfull and intelligent people here, and quite frankly, it's mention in those types of magazines that could threaten it.When I started this post it was more to poke fun at the fact that Sasha is coming off like a pioneer of sorts. His hipocracy was also strange as he is quick to blame "trainspotters" for exploiting DJ'ing by buying turntables and playing new records / whitelables... while he himself has chosen to jump on the "Laptop musician/DJ train" which has been rolling ahead full speed way before him., and then self-annoint himself as a pioneer or a first to do this.just my 1 cent. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodimix Posted April 4, 2005 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2005 While we are on the topic:http://www.monolake.de/monodeck.htmlYes, the creators of Live have built themselves a box (although they confess to using doepher).http://www.doepfer.de/controller_example_1.JPGAndrew Neumann's box... the URL should tell you the technology behind it.http://www.doepfer.de/controller_example_2.JPGRichie Hawtin AKA Plastic Man - another box based on the doepher system.http://www.doepfer.de/pe.htmThe other MIDIBOX - not as featured. as this one, (wheres the LCD!), but looks to be a much shorter learning curve. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodimix Posted April 4, 2005 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2005 . Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stryd_one Posted April 4, 2005 Report Share Posted April 4, 2005 Now one other thing to consider... if you were to state in these 'articles about Sash'a something like "The Maven was built from a DIY kit that you can find on the internet at www.midibox.org." Think for a moment how flooded this place would get... and what type of people it would be flooded with.YES I couldn't agree more..... It's a very hard one this. I don't know if I would want all that attention floating around here, it could be a REAL pain............But then again TK and his design, Smash, and the tireless hard work of everyone involved, deserve the bloody credit!!!This kind of publicity could end up with TK being paid to do his hobby, which would surely be a lovely thing for TK. So I will volunteer to deal with any 'Maven Madness' that may ensue, as my way of saying thankyou to TK.The bastards.... I just woke up, and now I'm GRUMPY! Â >:( >:( >:( Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterkirn Posted April 4, 2005 Report Share Posted April 4, 2005 Okay, now I have to jump in -- The reason no one knows anything about Sasha's controller is that none of us can find out what the thing is, because none of us can get any info on it. I was scheduled for an interview that got indefinitely postponed; I'm hoping I can get back on his slate because this is a question I'd love to ask. And I agree that Midibox.org should get LOTS of credit for this thing if it is based on Midibox!Will it be commercialized? I have no idea. My quote was taken out of context; I only implied that there's a trend toward laptop + Live + controller. Sasha himself supposedly used to use a UC-33e like many of us; now people are looking for better alternatives. And building one is a great way to go.I'm not here to comment on how good/bad I think Sasha is. I think it's great what a broad range of people are using controllers and laptops, and I think the more this trend is popularized, the broader the range of music we'll hear made with it -- including by some very fine musicians who may not yet be turned onto MIDI tech. I write about Sasha because I know people know who he is -- I also write about people and technologies I know no one has ever heard of. The folks at Ableton never expected DJs would be using Live -- nor did the expect a lot of the other musical expressions that came out of their product.That said, of course I always prefer to get to the bottom of the story and find out what stuff really is and how it works. And frankly, you guys are the trend as much as Sasha is. The DIY thing is getting really huge, and I know it's of particular interest both to me and Tom Whitwell (UK, MusicThing -- also in your Google searches). So I think we'll make sure you get the credit you deserve. 8)PeterEditor, www.createdigitalmusic.comFreelance Writer Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
peterkirn Posted April 4, 2005 Report Share Posted April 4, 2005 By the way, please READ the posts carefully. Tom said he thought the Maven "must have cost" as much as a 2-hour gig, not that it did. ;)I remember hearing the number $12,000, but I try to avoid printing things like that without a reference in front of me, because sometimes I'm visited by mysterious mystical talking beasts or creatures in dreams and accidentally take it as fact. So no one knows what this is, or how much it costs, or even if it is really Midibox-derived -- though I'm guessing from what you've heard in this thread that you're right, it is. Anyway, I think if you don't like said celebrity's music, there's one fail-proof way to respond: make gear and music that's better. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodimix Posted April 4, 2005 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2005 The real question is what does the MIDIBOX project mean, and what is it's purpose. This is a question that everyone will have a different answer to, but maybe only TK can really say.If it's purpose is to act as a hub for innovations in the MIDI controllerand synth fields than it's goal would be to have a user/contributer base of the most active, inspired, and brilliant in the field which constantly drive it forward. IE a "homebrew" club. A way to allow people to create thier own instruments in an affordable manner... as an options to mass produced, overly priced commercial equiptment.Or, if it is to compete with other commercial (M-Audio et al), or niche (dopfler, pocket fader) products then it would seek to become a registered company, and then gain visibility and revenue. (Thru original products, licensing, or both).If it is to become a platform for second party developers to utilitze in their designs (IE Maven or other box creations) then a licensing program would be benifitial where the builder would be required to pay a fee and credit MIDIBOX technology in their documentation. Industrial / Product design is nothing to be overlooked... Thou the Maven runs on the brillant innards of the MIDIBOX, it's build is also something that I feel deserves credit. It looks like a nice, solid, attractive design. I know it's easy to bash it, but if you saw this posted as Midibox of the Week, and didnt know about the Sasha ordeal, you would love it. I also think that the reason Sasha didnt mention MIDIBOX or the builder is because he didn't want everyone and thier mother running out to build their own (or his design). Like he said, his whole drive to do this was to "add the smoke and mirrors" back to his set... he's still upset that the early days of electronic music DJ'ing have passed and he's lost his 'mystical' appeal. (and I do remember being a kid and watching DJ's spin at clubs/raves wondering 'how do they do that???' or imagining that it's the DJ who was responcable for this wonderful music, Only to find out later how simple it really was (technically that is... good choice in records and building a great set take real TALENT and a good ear).But your right, I'm sure it is tough to decide where to go on this. Many great companies start off in this manner... no funding, doing something for the sheer love of learning, advancing a technology, and having something unique to show for it. Now I'm not saying that MIDIBOX is the next Apple Computer - I'm not here to flatter or extend the truth beyond what it is, but at sometime or another in the life of a project, a decision must be made. Otherwise, it's human nature that someone else will take what you've done and esentially make the decision for you (in this world, someone like the Maven builder is the least of your worries... there are scumbags and corporations waiting to turn a profit on someone elses idea all over the place). And if the big guys really wanted to mass produce the Maven, a big company would use their own innards anyway, and you can't really argue that the design, in terms of functionality, owes itself just to MIDIBOX. It's in producing short runs, one off's, or prototypes of a controller where MIDIBOX really shines (from a commercial standpoint). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bodimix Posted April 4, 2005 Author Report Share Posted April 4, 2005 Peter, can you elaborate on the mythical beasts that have been visiting you in dreams, and taking your words out of context? I'm having similar problems and have been looking for a solution-I like your site BTW- Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moebius Posted April 4, 2005 Report Share Posted April 4, 2005 The real question is what does the MIDIBOX project mean, and what is it's purpose. This is a question that everyone will have a different answer to, but maybe only TK can really say.I think TK has made a wise move and stepped a little aside from "the Politics of the Midibox".. I'm not talking on behalf of him (still--- I think I can hear a faint whisper: "be analytical.. learn some assembler.."). I just think, that he has seen that the community has it's own drive and mostly sorts things out by itself.. Although, you can find some references from the forum. I'm not giving a link - find out by yourself 8) If it's purpose is to act as a hub for innovations in the MIDI controllerand synth fields than it's goal would be to have a user/contributer base of the most active, inspired, and brilliant in the field which constantly drive it forward. IE a "homebrew" club. A way to allow people to create thier own instruments in an affordable manner... as an options to mass produced, overly priced commercial equiptment.Or, if it is to compete with other commercial (M-Audio et al), or niche (dopfler, pocket fader) products then it would seek to become a registered company, and then gain visibility and revenue. (Thru original products, licensing, or both).For "the small print" of the current situation: http://www.avishowtech.com/midibox/wiki/index.php/Question%20and%20AnswersWhy "DIY" or "free" project couldn't compete with commercial products and still maintain its status? You just have to get involved.. maybe learn some new skills. And then build a damn fine Midibox that's better than anything on the market. That's why TK saw all the effort to create a platform.. to be shared, not to be abused.Thou the Maven runs on the brillant innards of the MIDIBOX, it's build is also something that I feel deserves credit. It looks like a nice, solid, attractive design. I know it's easy to bash it, but if you saw this posted as Midibox of the Week, and didnt know about the Sasha ordeal, you would love it. No doubt about that. On the other hand-- Why not go thru those articles again and replace each mention of "Maven" with "Midibox".. If I only had the budget... Gold plated knobs.. Ymm.. :DBye, Moebius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
smashtv Posted April 5, 2005 Report Share Posted April 5, 2005 After reading and re-reading everything I could find on this issue I think:Sasha himself might know nothing of the MIDIbox heart of his controller, that little detail may not have ever been explained to him.Nobody but the people writing about the maven have made any statements regarding price, who actually built it, etc.When read precisely no indication that anyone is planning to produce more of these, ignore the terms of the license, etc.My hat is off to Peter Kirn for showing up here to explain/fill in the blanks about who said what. Not many independents show that level of responsibility. There are two ways to look at his writing on this, one is to judge it as slightly sensationalistic journalism, the other is to see it more like a conversation you (any of you!) and I would have if eyeballing/looking at the controller for the first time.When thought of more like a conversation and read carefully it looks less like wild speculation and more like best guess/open questions.This is after all a blog story, not a news piece prepared for Reuters.Don't get me wrong, I have nothing but love for this whole community, but watching it degrade into a flame war about derivative talent does nothing to make our designs better, it just makes the next guy with a new idea afraid to post.Best!SmashEdit: 04.07.05 - Hostility removed - Smash Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
siddhu Posted April 5, 2005 Report Share Posted April 5, 2005 Hey SmashTV,I posted an extract from one of your posts and a link to this thread on the Ableton board.Thanks for the great work you and Thorsten are doing. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MrYellow Posted April 6, 2005 Report Share Posted April 6, 2005 New here.....You guys have something great here.I've looked at the MIDIBox code and love the way you've put it all together.Unfortunatly it wasn't the right thing for my drum trigger project as I really wanted to customise it to my own needs.So when I saw the Mavin, from the outside, I instantly knew it was MIDIBox.... It's obvious to anyone that's seen what MIDIBox OS can do and how simple it is to implement."Tell me how to make the Maven!", Rubbish tip....Retro knobs.....Old shitty wood-grain plastic coated aliminium.Big ass ugly rails for the sides....+ MIDIBoxDone.-Ben Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stryd_one Posted April 6, 2005 Report Share Posted April 6, 2005 Heya MrYellowWelcome :D You picked a very turbulent thread to make your first post... Don't let the rumble put you off, this is actually the most friendly place on the net! :) Honestly, this is the most static I've seen on this board, ever (I've been around for over 2 years according to the page, I had no idea!).What kinda of customisations did you want to make? TK has made a truly awesome bit of gear here and you might be surprised at just how customizable it can be... I'll be more than happy to help you out if I can, and there are several others here who have made MIDIBox based drum trigger units...Perhaps if you start a new thread in the 'Design Concepts' board, mentioning your specific needs, someone will be able to hook it up for you. You never know :)Cheers Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jdutcher Posted April 6, 2005 Report Share Posted April 6, 2005 Rubbish tip....Retro knobs.....Old shitty wood-grain plastic coated aliminium.Big ass ugly rails for the sides....+ MIDIBoxDone.that sums it up pretty well. ;D ;D ;DP.S. thanks for the help peter...great work. also, i've been enjoying your site :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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