MIDIbox on eBay

[smashtv]

If you want to have any extensions added to the SID, I can help you, too. In general I can manufacture everything shown on http://www.ucapps.de. Just let me know jamram(at)web(.)de.

From this auction: http://cgi.ebay.co.uk/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=7797&item=7317281354&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW

As a community, is everyone happy about supporting the buyer of this box when the auction ends?

Is it ethical to say on ebay: i can make anything from ucapps for you?

Smash

[jimhenry]

I think it would be appropriate for Thorsten to politely but firmly point out to the seller that the MIDI Box code is NOT licensed for use in commercial project.

[SounDuke]

I don't think this would be that effective: Midibox sid is an high quality synthesizer in its class, I own a sidstation and it is useless to compare them. If this is not enough, for what I know Elektron has discontinued building Sidstation, so a sid based synthesizer with full midi implementation is becoming a dream for most people. After finishing my midibox sid I received a lot of requests "please please build me one" from people resembling children asking for a ice cream. Here in Italy people would spend 200 € for a MBSID instead of learning a few basic notions of electronics (Even I was able to build a full fledged MBSID! Everyone can do it!). But not everyone is going to refuse as I did and there's no law or supervision which stops people from doing it. That's the price to pay for being a unique community like Midibox.

These things make me feel sick

[moebius]

Uhhuh?

What should WE do about it? Jamram was last active on the yesterday.. Is building midiboxes for other people becoming a new cottage industry?

--Doesn't ebay have a system to report "suspicious" items? is THIS  one of those? From my view it is. If the pic is ordered from the microship as a sample, I think that's also breaking the license. Samples should have "no commercial value".

Fuck, Am I irritated?

M

[jamram]

hi,

well, thats exactly what i have feared all the time, when offering my midibox sid on ebay. my idea was to make a bigger bigger sidbox with a new pcb layout, but i just couldn't afford it, since i'm only a poor  college student. It's not fair to say i would do this on any commercial purpose - thats just not true. i wrote "i can manufacture everything you see on ucapps" only to point out, that if somebody wats the  4-Sid option and is not able to make it himself, maybe i can do it for him at little expense - and my idea was to make my midibox sell at least for 100 bucks (and it was a long time on 66 Euros, which didn't even cover the costs for the parts).

I know it was better if i had asked before selling this item, please accept my  apology for this :.-(

and don't get mad at me, by end of may my little  contribution (a screwhole-fitting front-panel and main 4xsid pcb will be finished)., i thought even of offering ready drilled and etched boards, but i don't know how to charge for it. (i don't want to compete with mikes pcb-shop, since he is very cheap already, but my costs considered the material only, would be lower, because i can etch at my college lab...)

best regs, alex sidow, aka jamram

[jamram]

Well, let me anser some qoutes, too

Here in Italy people would spend 200 € for a MBSID instead of learning a few basic notions of electronics (Even I was able to build a full fledged MBSID! Everyone can do it!). But not everyone is going to refuse as I did and there's no law or supervision which stops people from doing it. That's the price to pay for being a unique community like Midibox.

These things make me feel sick

Yes, I understand this. But there is one thing on opensource you should take into your consideration. Thinking of linux and sourceforge for example, noone could ever have installed linux on a company server, if it wasn't allowed to use it for a commercial project. linux is, as we know released on the gnu gpl - the same terms as thorsten klose's MIOS and SID-os. And i know very many linux servers on the whole wide world used in companies, even i know the so called "suse" distribution, which in my opinion is the most commercial next to red hat. all are based on the free linux - how to handle this? are people to be nagged, just because they are not able to configure postfix properly, they should learn this? I dont think so. So it is with soldering, too - my mdibox (and i'm very firm with electronics) took me several days to make it run. how should someboy, who has never held a soldering iron in his hands, get it finished? Whats the point im wrong on?

--Doesn't ebay have a system to report "suspicious" items? is THIS  one of those? From my view it is. If the pic is ordered from the microship as a sample, I think that's also breaking the license. Samples should have "no commercial value".

Find me offering the used microchip as SAMPLE! I don't know exactly which of my rd. 15 Microchips I have ordered from Reichelt or received as a free sample. I use the PIC for other purposes than midibox, too.......... :-(

As a community, is everyone happy about supporting the buyer of this box when the auction ends?

Is it ethical to say on ebay: i can make anything from ucapps for you?

Maybe youre right. It's not ethical. I'm very disappointed to get reactions in that way the first. What the hell should i have done to my mbsid, after i finished my 4x one? throw it out of the window and jump on it? Or pass it to the salvation army?

I DO NOT HAVE ANY COMMERCIAL INTENT ON IT, I JUST WANTED TO GET THE COST FOR THE PARTS BACK. The money i gained more thatn parts cost - thats the thing to offend me for - tell me what i can do with it to satisfy you. I will tell you when the auction is finished, okay?

Sorry, but now, i was getting mad a little - since i had done something on opensource before and never had any ideas in this direction....

[Twin-X]

I do not mind people sell their things so they can fund new projects. I do not think it is a commercial way of selling since it is not bulk selling.

It is indeed unethical to say i can make everything you want from ucapps. People must approach you trough a community if they want this and then you should do it without making profit.

Second i dislike it that you use hotlinking to this site. if the device mallfunctions they will ask support here and not to you. Second it uses my bandwidth.

Still i do not mind you selling it but you should have asked this forum first. things would have looked diffently.

[moebius]

Yes, I understand this. But there is one thing on opensource you should take into your consideration. Thinking of linux and sourceforge for example, noone could ever have installed linux on a company server, if it wasn't allowed to use it for a commercial project.

You don't get it, don't you? Building a successful eCommerce site with Linux + Apache equals building MBSID and making a top ten hit, in a midibox world.

linux is, as we know released on the gnu gpl - the same terms as thorsten klose's MIOS and SID-os. And i know very many linux servers on the whole wide world used in companies, even i know the so called "suse" distribution, which in my opinion is the most commercial next to red hat. all are based on the free linux - how to handle this? are people to be nagged, just because they are not able to configure postfix properly, they should learn this?

What they do then? Tell me? What does a company do: let it's own (windoze ;)) comp. techs setup the sendmail instead or hire a pro to deal with the postfix?

And now if you're the guy setting it up, which one are you? Looking at your SID...

I dont think so. So it is with soldering, too - my mdibox (and i'm very firm with electronics) took me several days to make it run. how should someboy, who has never held a soldering iron in his hands, get it finished? Whats the point im wrong on?

And hey, if the company is really serious - yes, linux MEDIA is cheap, they also buy the costly support plan-- I can't see where you would fit here, it must be the midibox community then, which doesn't get paid for its work...

Bye, Moebius

p.s. I wouldn't like to this happenin' again. Being unemployed, I'm poor, but my time is cheap.. Still I wouldn't like to spend it on people who take advantage of it.

Could I get engraved PCB's for free - with some Sweet-Talking, hell yeah! Do I know a couple of places, where they do low priced frontpanel CNC engraving as student works? Probably.

Do I need some cash to spend - doesn't everybody? What stops me?!

[jamram]

You don't get it, don't you? Building a successful eCommerce site with Linux + Apache equals building MBSID and making a top ten hit, in a midibox world.

I don't want to argue about who catches the plot or doesn't. I think I have said, what is necessary to say in these circumstances. If you want to interprete my words in a way it cant match your ethics because of your beeing right, I quit any further discussion. I know the idea of opensource very wel for a long timel, and I don't see where I have cheated anybody, especially the ones whose contributions aren't effected in any way. The only one who could claim beeing cheated is Thorsten himself. The linux example is wider than what you derived from it, and you know, I suppose. Hopefully I have emphasized enough, i don't wanted to be commercial, just for selling my own -one- sidbox. If you don't get this, I cant help it. Sorry.

br, jamram.

[illogik]

getting bored of this bllsht,

DONT SELL A MIDIBOX

DEFINITELY NOT ON EBAY

BECAUSE WE WILL FIND IT AND START MANY DISCUSSIONS

IT IS NOT WORTH IT.......

if you need money for new projects and you have a old project your not going to use consider selling it to a friend + ask equal/less than you payed (friend!)

if this isn't possible BAD LUCK

now gentlemen, let's get back to the important stuff ....    8)

[moebius]

Yeah,

Sidetracked. Enough of this ect.

M

[Rene]

Maybe an idea to make a subforum for user to selling their boxes to other users, with no profit of course.

[Julian]

Another point that bothers me!

i found a link on your ebay auction to a track made by me (karawane)

I released it under a creative commons license, that means you are not allowed to offer it to other peoople without mentioning my name and further, you are not allowed to use it in a commercial way

please remove the file from your server! or add a little nothe that it was made by me!

it makes me sad and angry to see you don't respect my work, neither TK's :-p

julian

[smashtv]

Put on your welding goggles people, this is about to get rough.....If you don't want to get agitated today, don't read any further. 

I really don't want this to be a place of hostility, and I really don't want to start a big flamewar, but some things need said before this fades from view.......

First a rant about sampling parts:

This type of crap is exactly why I begged the fine people at Microchip to quit sampling DIP versions of what we use, you have to examine cause and effect of this type of sampling for your own MIDIboxes.......if the sampling to actual sales ratio on a line of chips looks like everybody tried but did not buy, the chip will be discontinued much faster than if samples vs. sales has a healthy balance.  Availability of our beloved '452 in the next few years should not be made an issue for future 'boxers.

Anyone think Microchip is going to be happy knowing samples are showing up on eBay?  Don't tell me they won't know, they are quite aware of what we do here.....

Part samples are for new designs not tested ones! 

Now directly to you jamram:

I bet whoever manages the lab there at FH Wedel would like to know thier stuff is on eBay and that you are contemplating PCB fab services using thier resources......

well, thats exactly what i have feared all the time, when offering my midibox sid on ebay.

That's the little voice in you head telling you "bad idea".  Listen to it next time.

and don't get mad at me, by end of may my little  contribution (a screwhole-fitting front-panel and main 4xsid pcb will be finished)., i thought even of offering ready drilled and etched boards, but i don't know how to charge for it. (i don't want to compete with mikes pcb-shop, since he is very cheap already, but my costs considered the material only, would be lower, because i can etch at my college lab...)

I'm sure the college will be mighty happy about this.

And in your next post, the commercial outlook seemed to change drastically:

I DO NOT HAVE ANY COMMERCIAL INTENT ON IT, I JUST WANTED TO GET THE COST FOR THE PARTS BACK.

THEN YOU SHOULD HAVE SOLD IT AS PARTS. 

Don't use the mechanics of scale (1 box vs. 50) as a defense, I have a self-built MIOS lighting desk that has some extremely valuable parts in it, between the motorfaders, sunlight-readable gas plasma touchscreen, redundant internal and external UPS power supplies I have several thousand dollars in this box.

On the open market this box along with the max patches I use would fetch $15,000 in a hearbeat......

Instead of a sid where I might make $50 over the cost of parts on eBay, I could reel in around $10,000 over the cost of parts.....

You can see the problem here, what qualifies as acceptable exploitation of the MIDIbox -seems- to be open for debate.  It is not.

Replies to others:

After finishing my midibox sid I received a lot of requests "please please build me one" from people resembling children asking for a ice cream. Here in Italy people would spend 200 € for a MBSID instead of learning a few basic notions of electronics

Man you should see my inbox.....People would rather try to drive a dump truck full of money up to my house than follow a link to learn how to solder.

Maybe it's time to post the best begging emails and my replies on the web somewhere......Like you this makes me feel a bit sick.

I do have to admit though that this is easier to tolerate now that I use a canned response for the always whiney second requests: "get bent f*cko, never gonna happen, go shop at guitar center" seems to cross all language barriers much better than any other english sentence I have ever seen.  ;) Of course first request is always met with a non-threatening and quite friendly explanation of how it's all free and the only price of admission is to pick up a soldering iron, explaining how good the forum is at helping newbie builders, etc.  Everyone who's been here a while or shown pics of thier box knows this drill.....

i found a link on your ebay auction to a track made by me (karawane)

I released it under a creative commons license, that means you are not allowed to offer it to other peoople without mentioning my name and further, you are not allowed to use it in a commercial way

please remove the file from your server! or add a little nothe that it was made by me!

it makes me sad and angry to see you don't respect my work, neither TK's :-p

I was trying my best to let this issue die until I saw this post this morning, and it fired me right back up about it.

To the newbies or old schoolers thinking about selling:  Don't.  There is no way you can justify bending the rules in a way that won't get -me- directly on your ass. 

That said, anyone in Germany (near FH Wedel University of Applied Sciences) want some free hardware for simply handing this entire thread in printed form to the right people (lab master) at the college? 

This would:

A) be cheaper than me hiring unknown local goons to serve it up

B) get one builder free parts

C) provide some resolve for everyone who has not taken the offers to build for money

D) provide some resolve for those who's work was exploited without consent

Again I'll say, we have to defend the non-commercial/open/free attitude, with teeth, else there is no motive to share any innovation for anyone involved.

And as usual I only speak for myself, these are my own opinions (and actions), nobody else's.  If I offend or anger anyone I'm truly sorry, my intent is to try to get people to understand the concept that the MIDIbox is free and -will not- be exploited.  As the popularity of MB grows we are in for a constant flood of eBayers and commercial attempts if we don't set a precedent now.

I know crap like this should be dropped, forgotten, etc. so we can get on with some engineering, but enough is enough and Jamram's self-started, new found trouble will serve as an example for the future kids low on beer money.....

Best!

Smash 

[sjakie]

I can understand all the excitement, but I guess it is just a license issue. If no money may be charged and the stuff can only be build for personal use then a license must be chosen for both hradware designs as well as the software to cover this. That way any attempts to exploit midiboxes commercially can be stopped.  Currently I see only a GNU license, which does not forbid any of this as long as you comply to all it's requisites. I think currently there is even the risk of a company building midiboxes and sell them, as long as they provide source and pointers to ucapps.de. Similar to GNU licensed linux stuff build into routers (linksys I think and others...) But then again I am no lawyer, so I may be incorrect about this.

Anyway seems to me that this should be the point of discussion....

[johnh]

First a disclaimer:  I'm new here and if it weren't for SmashTV I wouldn't have built

any Midibox hardware yet.  I've spent a fair amount of money at his site and friends

have done the same based on my recommendation.  That being said:

SmashTV writes:

how it's all free and the only price of admission is to pick up a soldering iron,

How was this 'price of admission' determined?  If I had a production facility that could wave

solder boards and I ran SmashTV's kits through it and only charged for the consumbles

would that be kosher?  Would that be any different  than buying from SmashTV or the

other board vendors?  Given all the different facets of the Midibox project it would seem

that basing the price of admission solely on being able to solder is a bit strange in my

opinion.

[Tanstaafl]

OK,

 

here is a link to all the modified boards I have made.... DIN, AIN, AOUT, MF, CORE with cheap Resonator, DOUT .....

(single board... single sided...burn 'em ur-self and sell 'em on SchmeeBay)

http://www.ggbnet.com/midiboxSales.htm

They are all for sale.....

::)

[moebius]

Again I'll say, we have to defend the non-commercial/open/free attitude, with teeth, else there is no motive to share any innovation for anyone involved.

I'll second that.

I feel like these are growing pains - 909 members on the forum 18. Jan 2004, now it's almost doubled.

It seems pointless to talk about "current situation" or how Midibox project has gotten to the current state. For those who are genuinely interested, "Latest News" has at least a couple of important topics/threads.

---

I still feel this is Midibox Community. Of course it isn't static. There are guys there, who can build a box "out of the documents", people who just started soldering, people who can program own applications, guys with visually amazing designs that run stock midibox code... ect.

Now I'm just wondering what this Community needs?

Permission to produce and sell midiboxes on eBay? Ready made "plug&play" MB modules? A new forum section for Flamewars? Uhh, I'm puzzled.

If any of You have any worthy improvements in mind - Please, do start another thread.

---

I have to thank Thorsten for making all this possible: He made a midi controller for himself, published it and interest towards it inspired him to create a whole modular hardware/software platform out of it. For free for all of us. How many of you could do the same or would do the same?

It's his hobby, maybe we should keep it in hobby level too?

Moebius

[jamram]

Well, though I said, I wouldn't take part in this kindergarden discussion any longer (I thought, we all are adult enough to know where flaming starts and whats the difference to a serious opinion), I have to comment some statements again, because they definitely pointinto my direction :.-(

To SmashTV:

That's the little voice in you head telling you "bad idea".  Listen to it next time.

What next time?  Oh, yeah, I remember, must be the 5.000 SIDboxes I've already built to sell them soon on ebay ;-)

But it comes better, this is nasty,  how would you react, if somebody wants to threaten you like this? Thats is really childish, there are other ways to tell me your discomfort:

I bet whoever manages the lab there at FH Wedel would like to know thier stuff is on eBay and that you are contemplating PCB fab services using thier resources...... [...] I'm sure the college will be mighty happy about this.

The lab maintainer is Dieter  Opitz (dopitz(at) fh-wedel (.)de), and he knows about all my activities, since I have to ask for the keys first, before I can do anything. Try to bug him, he has got better things to do than answering your  silly complaints about something that did not even took place.... Do you really think, I'd make  an offer, if I am aware, I wasn't allowed to? What about Microchip? Don't you think they know themselves how to handle samples and whom they send it to? Are You playing kinda community police for some kinda ill ethics just to keep your pcb-shop going, maybe? Yeah daddy, you're right, come on, please don't punish me :-P. If you were able to read properly what I exactly wrote: "i DON'T want to COMPETE with mikes pcb-shop, since he is VERY CHEAP already, but MY COSTS considered the material only, would be LOWER, because i can etch at my college lab.", you see how much commercial I am.

Maybe you can afford a studio with plasma-touch screen, there are months i cant afford even paying my very low telephone bill. Thats of no interest to me. I don't care for magic of scale either, YES, i admitted already, it was wrong to sell it on ebay. Sorry! What else do you want me to do now?

At Julian:

Sorry, I didn't want to violate your  copyright license, I have removed it from the server. Since I downloaded this song a time  ago and liked it very much, I wasn't aware of the license at this time.

and to the whole community:

In my idea keeping opensource alive does not only mean coding or working for free and make this intellectual property available to everyone with GPL license (I myself do prefer the BSD License), but also to be openminded. To defend a  community or opensource with teeth means, to be  a warrior for a better thing. War has never brought anything alse than pain. Well maybe I'm wrong, but openminded in my interpretation means to be able to forgive a mistake. I regretmy mistake, but some of you to allege that I would do more and more bad things, more than even I know about myself - I can't help it. I never meant to be a bad guy. Now I am, and I have to face the consequences. And it seems as if I am your enemy now, too? How many more things in my behaviour are wrong, too? Maybe, it's not allowed to have sex with guys in some countries. I had. Oh, that's not of interest? Ups, I wonder why. So to some of you i send out this: If this is your  community ethics, thank you very much, but I have to object - please don't harass me, I won't bother you any longer.

Yeah, I know, it's Alex versus the rest of the world, but I'm used to it.

best regs and a pacific smile, jamram.

[Julian]

"At Julian:

Sorry, I didn't want to violate your  copyright license, I have removed it from the server. Since I downloaded this song a time  ago and liked it very much, I wasn't aware of the license at this time."

no problem... you could even leave it on your server if you would just add my name and maybe a link to my page...

i just don't like when my work is made available without credits to the name.

have a nice day,

julian

[sjakie]

It seems unfair to take this out on a single person. I bet there are more people making a few bucks doing midiboxes for others, they just won't be shouting it around on the forum here. Personally my daytime job is more than enough, and rated by the hour I'm pretty sure it brings in more than doing midiboxes would. I assume this is the same for a lot of people here.

So, what is the real worry ? I mean, who cares if you make $10,000 over some midibox ? I bet it's not even that profitable considering all the labour and talk with your buyer you will undoubtably need to do?

The true magic of midibox is not really found in the end-products is it? I mean, of course it is individually but that is because it is about doing it yourself, hunting the parts, making all the choices that are available from cheap to expensive from basic to slick designs etc. The ability to make it yours. The feel of having something made that only (relativily) a few people have. Even having access and discussion with the creators of it. How can you commercially exploit that essence, to the extent of getting filty rich? I don't believe in that. Maybe someone would be able to have a business selling custom midiboxes, but it would be a decent  living at most, involving some pretty hard work. I can even see something honorable in that? I mean like there are people building custom harleys or something, or companies delivering hosting deals using apache/php/mysql. Wouldn't thorsten and community actually be proud? To have created something that allows a person to dedicate his professional live to it?

In what way is who cheated then? Is it that you put effort in something and someone else makes money out of it? If that is the worry, then you should consider who's really commercially minded. I mean, if you keep ideas to yourself because of the fear that someone other than yourself will make money with it, I guess not talking at all would be best. I'm sorry, but without the millions of people that lived before me, the people I speak to today, I woudn't even be having the ideas I have (which also allow me to make my living).

If you do think midiboxes can be exploited to the filty-rich extend, can you then please please please tell me how ;) Because I don't think I would be needing midibox technology itself for that then. I don't think there are wonders performed in the midibox technology alone.  If there is such a gap in the mass-market ready to be filled, it will be filled without midibox. If someone with a commercial view would really believe midiboxes could make him rich by selling 100000's boxes, he'd probably try to pursuede thorsten (and others?) to join him in this, because that's what is needed. The true source.

So what's left then, the fear of the community being flooded with people not investing themselves to understand it and to contribute to it? I guess, this is like moebius said, more an aspect of a growing community. Secondly, personally I find it pretty hard to contribute  something meaningful. For new people there is so much catching up to do that I don't easily see much meaningful contributions coming from them. I also think that Thorsten, mostly only accepts ideas and suggestions,  but it would be a long time from before any core code or core design from someone else will be part of midibox/mios. And I don't mean that negatively, but that's more a programmers thing I understand pretty well.

From my perspective thorsten is like way up there, some miles below are a small group of others (who have probably been around some time) and then some 100 miles below follows the rest...

Well, no offence intended anywhere, just thoughts spoken. Come on, someone selling his midibox on ebay, for a lousy 140 euros. I actually feel a bit sorry that he will have to miss his midibox and also having been mangled by this forum.

Anyway,  I'm off to work further on the FM -synth (and yes also thanks to Smash's boards) !!!  Now that is really important ;)

[TK.]

I hope that you don't wait for an official statement from my side - I won't give it until all consequences are clear.

There are background discussions running since some weeks which should clarify the official "terms and conditions" - it isn't really easy to find a solution which help to seperate the "good guys" from the "bad guys"

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[moebius]

It seems unfair to take this out on a single person.

True, so true.

jamram: Your apology accepted from my side. I can't say I like all your rationalizations, but that's ok - This is still an open community and different views are accepted. On the other hand, you're smart enough to understand - this is not all about you or your actions, right?

I really can't envy SmashTV's position as an active forum member and providing PCBs for the midibox Community. Each and everytime he opens "his big mouth" to defend DIY nature of the Midibox it goes down to this: "..but hey, Your directly profiting from this.."

Having that said, I just happen to share some views about Midibox DIY nature with Smash.. as simple as that. It's not an hidden agenda - We just shout it out loud. And to clear things up - no, I don't have any PCBs from Tim, although I use his layouts for etching. He has done me some favours - and I find him as an all around good guy and easy to deal with.

For those or anyone questioning Smash's position - maybe you don't need the board layouts he has done or anything - Still he and Mike/Claudia are "major players" in making Midibox the success it is or as accessible as it is today. And I think he's giving the best support for his PCBs for the time he finds to do so. This thing has come a long way since Smashes home etched PCBs to pro-quality solder-masked, silk-screened ones - Still I can assure You, that each detail was discussed between the creator (TK) and the PCB provider (Smash)..

Everyone, feel free to argue or post your views!

M

[jdutcher]

well said, moebius.  things seem to be settling down now, so i don't want to rip this whole thing open again, but i wanted to express a few unbiased observations:

1.  to follow up on moebius' most recent post, SmashTV does NOT make any significant profits on the stuff he sells.  i know you've already tried to say this, moebius, but i thought i'd lay it out there in plain english for anyone who doesn't understand.  for someone to accuse smash of profiteering on midibox stuff is completely ignorant...he simply enables people to be more productive.

2. i agree that people are coming down too hard on jamram...making an example of him.  while i do think that what he did was wrong (and i think he knew that to begin with, but oh well), he's clearly sorry about offending anyone.

3. jamram, you say that all you wanted was to make back the money you spent on parts.  While I understand that sentiment, your actions seem to be much more dishonest than that.  I'll explain what I mean....  I don't know exactly how much your sid box cost you to put together, but my single sid with minimum control surface (40x2 lcd) cost about $60 (46.4376 EUR) for everything (sid included).  For the sake of argument, I'll be generous and say that your box maybe cost around 70euros ($90.4439 ) to build.  If you truly were only hoping to break even, you could have set a "Buy It Now" price on ebay for 70euros.  Instead, you let people bid and made 140.40euros ($181.405)!!  That's DOUBLE your money (THREE TIMES what I paid for mine).  So, you made quite a profit....which *seems* to be part of the motivation...which youu're not really owning up to.  I agree that we should all try to move on from this, but I wanted to point that out as one reason why some people are particularly upset about all of this.  Yes, the auction is over, you've made your money, so there's no point in dwelling on this matter indefinitely.  However, it is very important to acknowledge that you've opened up a real "can of worms" here.  I know better than to sell my midiboxes on eBay, but if someone else now sees that he can potentially make up to THREE TIMES what he paid by selling on eBay, it's going to take a very strong will to deter him.

in short, i accept your apology, but i think that your "stop yelling at me, i can't change what i've done" attitude is a bit smug and evasive.

feel free (anyone) to comment on these thoughts.

no hard feelings,

james

[Screaming_Rabbit]

Well, I actually didn't want to throw my mouth into this. I hate fights... spezially being involved.

But I have read all the replies and made my thoughts about them.

This sentence from "jdutcher"...

in short, i accept your apology, but i think that your "stop yelling at me, i can't change what i've done" attitude is a bit smug and evasive

... made me think: Yes, he can't change, what he's done... or can he? YES, he can. Why not donate 50% of the E-Bay netto win to MIOS?

http://69.56.171.55/~midibox/forum/index.php?topic=3592.0

This would propably make everybody a bit happier: Thorsten would have some spare money for his Midibox developments, jamram would have his parts payed back plus 50% of the win and everybody in the forum will profit from Thorsten's better budget.

This even brought me to another thought:

There will propably always be people who want to sell their old boxes to get some money out of it to finance the new parts. There could be a new forum topic, where a seller starts a new posting with a picture of the box, declaring his reason, why he want's to sell the box and how much the parts cost.

Everybody could make comments and Thorsten finally could give either the "GO" or "NO". The seller then posts the link of his E-Bay auction and after he got paied, he's donating (see above) perhaps 50% of his netto win to MIOS.

There could be rules... like this (a major one): Don't mention www.ucapps.de in the auction! ... it's declared as a "DIY Midi Controller for sale". So nobody has to be worried, that the buyers will ask for support in this community.

What do you guys think about that? The positive thing about this would be, that there is a (controlled) possibility to sell old boxes but the win is to small to encourage people to really deal with the stuff.

Greets, Roger