Connecting the SID and the Core

[Afro88]

Hey guys, I've just finished building the first SID and Core modules for my MidiboxSID and I'm trying to figure out how to connect them together, as well as a few other things...

1) I've been looking at http://www.ucapps.de/mbhp/mbhp_sid_c64_psu.pdf as I'm going to be using a C64 power supply. So... those four pins from J10 on the core go to their respective points on J2 on the SID, and the 2 pins from J2 on the core go to their respective pins on J2 on the SID. But the pictures on the SID documentation show a connector that connects all 8 from the core to the 8 on the SID with no other connections necessary except the power to the SID module... I'm refering to http://www.ucapps.de/mbhp/mbhp_sid_5.jpg here. So basically I'm confused. If I follow the C64_psu pdf is that all I have to connect up (besides the midi port)? Or are there other connections necessary?

2) Also, I'm using kits bought from SmashTV and I'm not sure if I should do the bypass caps thing for each module. Is it necessary with these boards?

3) As well as this, do I have to do the jumper thing on J3? I don't even have a J3, but is there something similar I'm supposed to do to "turn off" the programming interface to make the module work?

I think that's about it... I'm sure there'll be other questions once these are answered though ;)

Thanks very much in advance

[p-cord]

Hi,

I don't know the Smash-kits in particular, but I'll try to give some answers…

1) I've been looking at http://www.ucapps.de/mbhp/mbhp_sid_c64_psu.pdf as I'm going to be using a C64 power supply. So... those four pins from J10 on the core go to their respective points on J2 on the SID, and the 2 pins from J2 on the core go to their respective pins on J2 on the SID. But the pictures on the SID documentation show a connector that connects all 8 from the core to the 8 on the SID with no other connections necessary except the power to the SID module... I'm refering to http://www.ucapps.de/mbhp/mbhp_sid_5.jpg here. So basically I'm confused. If I follow the C64_psu pdf is that all I have to connect up (besides the midi port)? Or are there other connections necessary?

I dont know about the C64 PSU since I haven't used it.

But in general you'll have to connect the two modules together (beware the changes from MIOS 1.6) , the power-supply, the MIDI-in and the audio-out

2) Also, I'm using kits bought from SmashTV and I'm not sure if I should do the bypass caps thing for each module. Is it necessary with these boards?

It's good practice to do the bypassing, but I went without, since I had no additional caps here. It's absolutely required on the DIN-Module though, if you have one.

3) As well as this, do I have to do the jumper thing on J3? I don't even have a J3, but is there something similar I'm supposed to do to "turn off" the programming interface to make the module work?

(You mean the jumper bridge? You definitely need that…)

Sorry, see the answer below from SmashTV…

:)

[smashtv]

1) I've been looking at http://www.ucapps.de/mbhp/mbhp_sid_c64_psu.pdf as I'm going to be using a C64 power supply. So... those four pins from J10 on the core go to their respective points on J2 on the SID, and the 2 pins from J2 on the core go to their respective pins on J2 on the SID.

This is the way, in the PSU doc.  It's better than connecting all 8, as that can present a ground loop (can cause hum in the output) depending on your other wiring.

But the pictures on the SID documentation show a connector that connects all 8 from the core to the 8 on the SID with no other connections necessary except the power to the SID module... I'm refering to http://www.ucapps.de/mbhp/mbhp_sid_5.jpg here.

That's the old way, before MIOS v1.7 changes required moving CORE J10:SC to J10:MD.  It was a 1:1 cable before the change, now it's not (and performance with LEDs is much better!)

See http://www.ucapps.de/mios_v1_7_hardware_mods.html for the changes.....

So basically I'm confused. If I follow the C64_psu pdf is that all I have to connect up (besides the midi port)? Or are there other connections necessary?

You got it right, no other connections needed.

2) Also, I'm using kits bought from SmashTV and I'm not sure if I should do the bypass caps thing for each module. Is it necessary with these boards?

Well, at the risk of starting another flame war, it will work fine without bypass caps.  I have been slowly packing them in with new generations of kits as I run out of what I had made up on the shelf, but only because of new builder insecurity due to posts here on the forum.  (I'll happily send you some at my cost if your kits don't have them)

This has been a sticky issue for me for quite some time, as some would have you believe that every chip needs a bypass cap in every situation.  That's simply not true when dealing with a relatively clean linear power supply (like what we have on the core).  The idea of a bypass on every chip is a product of moving from linear to switching power supplies.

I have quite a few examples of fully functional designs from respected manufacturers with hundreds of chips per board that run fine without bypass, should anyone feel the need to debate the issue (In private this time please, no more flame wars on the forum because I don't follow the latest basic electronics course study book -theory- please.......)  ;D

There are thousands of working MIDIboxes around the world without extra bypass caps, and I have not seen one time where a bypass cap solved any issue with a MIDIbox other than a self-created wiring/interference/jitter issue.  Attention to wiring and grounding is much more important.

3) As well as this, do I have to do the jumper thing on J3? I don't even have a J3, but is there something similar I'm supposed to do to "turn off" the programming interface to make the module work?

No "J3" jumpers required.  My boards are routed like if you had all 5 jumpers there and installed.  J3 is a throwback to before the bootloader days, when you had to burn everything as a hex file with the JDM module or other burner.

That meant for an update or to put the app on you had to either pull the PIC, or connect the JDM module via J3.

Now life is much better, with everything but the bootloader done via sysex and MIOS studio.....Thanks again TK!  (whoops and Meeshka for MIOS Studio!)

Best

Smash

[smashtv]

It's good practice to do the bypassing, but I went without, since I had no additional caps here. It's absolutely required on the DIN-Module though, if you have one.

No.  Too many DIN modules out there (and here) working fine without bypass caps.  Where did this "absolute requirement" come from?

I agree it is good practice, etc. but your MIDIbox will run fine without them.

I'll say this again: if you are a customer of mine, and you did not get bypass caps in one or all of your kits, and you want them for whatever reason, send me an email and I'll send some your way at my cost.

Best

Smash

[Afro88]

Wow, thanks very much for the quick replies!

Regarding connecting the SID and the Core, I will stick purely to the pdf for my wiring, cheers for the advice :)

Well, at the risk of starting another flame war, it will work fine without bypass caps.  I have been slowly packing them in with new generations of kits as I run out of what I had made up on the shelf, but only because of new builder insecurity due to posts here on the forum.  (I'll happily send you some at my cost if your kits don't have them)

Nah, I got them, thanks :)

This has been a sticky issue for me for quite some time, as some would have you believe that every chip needs a bypass cap in every situation.  That's simply not true when dealing with a relatively clean linear power supply (like what we have on the core).  The idea of a bypass on every chip is a product of moving from linear to switching power supplies.

I have quite a few examples of fully functional designs from respected manufacturers with hundreds of chips per board that run fine without bypass, should anyone feel the need to debate the issue (In private this time please, no more flame wars on the forum because I don't follow the latest basic electronics course study book -theory- please.......)  ;D

There are thousands of working MIDIboxes around the world without extra bypass caps, and I have not seen one time where a bypass cap solved any issue with a MIDIbox other than a self-created wiring/interference/jitter issue.  Attention to wiring and grounding is much more important.

Fair enough. Well, since they're in the pack I may as well solder them in as an extra precaution. I pay extra attention to my wiring and soldering now after a few too many frustrating hours searching for wiring faults with my Soundlab, but you can never be too sure...

No "J3" jumpers required.  My boards are routed like if you had all 5 jumpers there and installed.  J3 is a throwback to before the bootloader days, when you had to burn everything as a hex file with the JDM module or other burner.

That meant for an update or to put the app on you had to either pull the PIC, or connect the JDM module via J3.

That's what I thought. I just saw the words "won't work" in the instructions on ucapps.de and thought I should check first. The fact that J3 doesn't exist on the board should been a dead giveaway for me though, heheh

Now life is much better, with everything but the bootloader done via sysex and MIOS studio.....Thanks again TK!  (whoops and Meeshka for MIOS Studio!)

Indeed! Thanks to TK and Meeshka for making it as simple as this to make and program!

And thanks Smash for your time answering these questions, and also for the fantastic kits! :) 1 very satisfied customer over here ;D

[p-cord]

No.  Too many DIN modules out there (and here) working fine without bypass caps.  Where did this "absolute requirement" come from?

I agree it is good practice, etc. but your MIDIbox will run fine without them.

…

Well, the "absolute-requirement" came from my MBSID. The (prorotyped) DIN-Module would refuse working without bypassing, so I thought it was worth being mentioned here… But  I have to note that that was just my own limited experience with the DIN. As I agree, CORE and SID-Module run perfectly fine without bypassing. 

:) fabian

[smashtv]

Well, the "absolute-requirement" came from my MBSID. The (prorotyped) DIN-Module would refuse working without bypassing, so I thought it was worth being mentioned here… But  I have to note that that was just my own limited experience with the DIN. As I agree, CORE and SID-Module run perfectly fine without bypassing. 

:) fabian

Whoop!  Looks like I need to say "I have only seen one MIDIbox.....blah blah blah" in the future.... ;)

Just curious:  Prototyping on a breadboard or PCB? (Nothing works on a breadboard without bypass caps for me, but I'm less than a mile from one of the most powerful AM radio transmitters in the US, so interference creeps in from the power line, the airwaves, and the earth ground.)

What brand and exact number are the '165s you are using? (Curious about this because some people have had issues until changing over to TI made chips......makes me think that even though they are HC class and performance should be the same that some other brands do not perform well.......)

:)

Best!

Smash