My new favorite word: Lazertran

[moebius]

Well,

I have used 2 methods:

One is the good old, just putting used, diluted solution down the drain. (mind the possible stains). Once it enters the sewer it will be diluted even more and it's not really that reactive anymore. You'll probably have noticed this, when using old solution that is only "hand warm".. it takes hours to etch away 35um copper.

Last time I used a recycled 5 Liter plastic canister as a ecthing tank and when the solution didn't ecth properly anymore, I just threw the whole thing to the trash can.

I'm not feeling guilty about it. Throwing away leftovers from the 60/40 solder after a soldering session is more dangerous to the environment.

But WE as hobbyists are not to blame in any case - the whole consumerism, the idea of disposable goods, instant gratification and the capitalistic utopia of the constant growth is more or less to blame about this mess.

Moebius, feeling sorry about pseudo-political rant in this posting.

[ilmenator]

At least here in Europe your local nameities must provide some sort of recycling system for those ''dangerous'' types of waste. Usually they have collecting points, sometimes even mobile ones, so that you do not need to drive far to get rid of your stuff.

For privateers this service is usually free of charge. The people at the collecting points like it if you can tell them what type of fluid/waste you bring them, but even if you claim to have found a canister in your cellar and have no idea about what it contains they will gladly accept your stuff.

FeCl can damage your eyes when getting in contact, even in low dilutions. I imagine it can also unbalance your local sewage plant. So be better than the rest and bring it where it should go.

Best regards, ilmenator

[moebius]

At least here in Europe your local nameities must provide some sort of recycling system for those ''dangerous'' types of waste. Usually they have collecting points, sometimes even mobile ones, so that you do not need to drive far to get rid of your stuff.

This is true. But my argument is: used FeCl isn't really enviromentally harmful.

I imagine it can also unbalance your local sewage plant. So be better than the rest and bring it where it should go.

See this link: http://web.archive.org/web/20041029030141/http://www.inchem.com.ph/fecl3.htm

I might not be the guy seeing the whole picture, but think about how much wastewater runs in the pipelines? How much does pouring FeCl really affect the system, as I have and have used 'so called' chlorite cleaning fluid, which is a popular product.

Moebius

[ilmenator]

Never mind,

I am not the one standing for political correctness or anything else in that matter.

I still believe that I myself can contribute my little share, though. Sometimes I try to convince others of that  :).

Best regards, ilmenator

[moebius]

I still believe that I myself can contribute my little share, though. Sometimes I try to convince others of that  :).

It is not about convincing others, but about the truth. OK? I'll be calling our local environmental center if they even have any rules about disposing FeCl.

Moebius

p.s. Look at my previous postings. Are You only an enviromentalist about this issue?

[ilmenator]

Before entering this thread I did not even know I was an environmentalist.  ;)

Maybe we should get back to the Lazertran topic anyhow?

Best regards, ilmenator

[stryd_one]

It's good to be an environmentalist. Oh yeh that old thing...

Interesting thoughts from a pro shop doing the same as us:

I've been using the desktop sequencer in the studio for a couple of months now but only just found a reliable method of adding the front panel legends that was of a standard I was happy to show people. I tried LetraSet but I'd rather saw my leg off with a rusty blade than try that again. I tried water-float decals but they just would not adhere to the surface at all and most peeled off with a couple of hours. Finally' date=' this morning, I tried plain, old simple self-adhesive glossy inkjet paper and the results were excellent. I'm so pleased with the end result that I'm going to re-design the front panel artwork to match this layout

[moebius]

Hi,

I called the local (Finnish) nameity and FeCl wasn't on the list of the "Toxic Chemicals" to be disposed as "Toxic Waste". :D There You go!

Back to the Lazertran - could any REAL European organise a group buy?

Pseudo-political rant: It's sort of weird, that we westerners are agreeing on the most things, but Brits still have their pound (also for measuring weights, in non-ISO standards), the dissidents and the criminals of the Europe dumped to the Australia and the Northern america have their Dollars :D

Moebius

[DavidBanner]

could any REAL European organise a group buy?

as opposed to all those counterfeit Europeans we keep seeing in the shops???

I'm based in the UK, I'll lend a hand if I can help - let me know....

[kris]

yea for mobeius the enviromentalist well done for checking it out and not just throwing it down the drain without caring 

[makari]

There seems to quite a few people with experience in doing lazertran stuff here so this seemed like a good place to post :)

So I'm thinking about using lazertran for my frontpanel but since I want a mostly black panel with white lettering I'm curious how well it works on large areas. Does it cover the aluminium/basecoat well or does it shine through? Can it crack or crumble or become uneven? Also how black is it compared to black paint or anodising?

For white lettering I assume I would have to spray the panel white first, has anyone tried this with the lazer version and baking it. Is it possible or does the heat mess up the paint?

[Jidis]

Makari,

Sorry, not quite an answer, but I've got some TRF (toner reactive foil) on the way for doing white on black as well (and white on raw PCB). I've been trying to get some forever and finally threw it on a Digikey order, which of course showed up today, without the TRF. >:(

I'd guess it'll be here early next week. If you're interested I'll try to snag some pictures.

Take Care,

George

[makari]

Sounds interesting, care to explain a little bit about how it works? Does it somehow change the colour of the toner so you can print other colours that black?

And yes, please post pictures :)

[Jidis]

Does it somehow change the colour of the toner

Yes (in theory, at least ;))

http://www.pulsar.gs/PCB/a_Pages/4_Products/4b_TRF_Foils/TRF_Foils.html

The green one is just for a reinforcing mask over regular toner, but I guess that could do labels too. If the white seems to work, there are dealers who used to sell variety packs of weird colors (metallics and such) on eBay or something. I'm wondering if it will have any trouble with my current toner transfer paper, which is sold by Staples. The Staples paper makes a really tight transfer, but it leaves this weird gray paper residue film over the toner. I'm not sure if it's enough to get in the way of the TRF though (will see I suppose).

I was just going to try it first on some top-side PCB labels, but I'll check the white on black too if you want. What sort of "black thing" were you planning on putting labels on? I can probably paint something or dig something up. I've got anodized black panels here, but I probably don't want text on them right now. ;D

BTW- With some playing around, I've gotten pretty good results with black on plain aluminum. I'm hoping the TRF sticks to it.

[makari]

Cool, so this film is put on top of the toner and only adheres to the toner and not the panel. Clever I must say  ;D  But I have no experience in toner transfer at all unfortunately, is it difficult?

Well you don't have to go to town just for me, but some pictures would be nice, tha black on aluminium looks good. And please don't spoil your anodised panels for me. :)

I'm thinking of ordering a pack of lazertran to mess around with anyway, they're not terrribly expensive and I can probably find a use for them even if it I don't end up using it for this partucular project. Gotta check if the printers at my university are compatible though...

[Jidis]

Hey again Makari,

I think Lazertran is probably the safest route, and I've seen some really nice looking results here. The toner is good for a bunch of stuff, but saying that it takes some getting used to is sort of an understatement. It can be a pain in the ass, but it's worth it if you're into doing custom PCB's on a regular basis.

I'm pretty sure any black on silver I do from now on will be etched aluminum (with an initial toner stage). That seemed to work pretty well and is definitely more "scratch resistant" than plain toner.

George

[Jidis]

Makari,

It's not looking good with this stuff. :'(

It showed up yesterday and I tried to "whiten" some labels I had just done on the top of a PCB. It made no effort at all to adhere to the toner for some reason. It's also on a really thin carrier sheet (like cellophane) which curls up and is somewhat hard to handle, and it came with no instructions. The stuff I could find on the web described the same process used for the toner transfer, so I used about the same amount of heat, time, and pressure that I usually do.

Figuring maybe the Staples paper residue was obstructing the TRF, I just tried more labels on a PCB top, using an old print from some JetPrint paper (no residue). Same exact result. Eventually, the heat and pressure de-fused some of the toner from the board and put a duplicate image on the white TRF paper (which stayed on the carrier).

I may try some other stuff, but I'm not getting my hopes up. I'm wondering if maybe it can go bad or something in storage. I may eventually mail Pulsar. They were pretty helpful when I inquired about it a while back.

Anybody else here ever tried that, or the green one?

Take Care,

George

[makari]

Sorry to hear that, it looked promising in theory though.

I finally ordered a set of lazertran that I'm gonna mess around with and if it works ok I'm, gonna go with that.

[smashtv]

Hi guys!

Sorry to chime in late here, I have not been following this thread.....

Anybody else here ever tried that, or the green one?

I have used the green stuff, and it works great, but only when used with the Pulsar transfer paper.  No groovy with toner transfered with PnP Blue, or blank clay coat (magazine paper).

The Pulsar paper seems to be the only thing out there that leaves no residue on the surface of the toner after transfer.

I use a modified laminator so the time/temp/pressure between my attempts was fairly uniform.

Pulsar support is top notch as is the product.  Frank was always helpful without being pushy.

I used reams of the transfer paper to do the legends on the old pre-soldermask/silkscreen boards, without so much as a bad sheet.

Best

Smash

[rambinator]

did anyone ever try lazertran on stainless steel? would a varnish stick to it?

[rambinator]

hey there! i've been experimenting with lazertran on steel. the results so far:

- old lazertran doesnt really work. i guess it would work with the upsidedown-baking method but my

panel is too large to fit in the oven. the gumside does not stick to the steel at, it peals off imediately

- the new lazertran looks quite promising. it seems to stick farely well (didt really try with more force to peel off).

anyway i've got problems getting it clear. it doesn't really work with sprayed varnish. it just gets semi transparent like

with very small sprinkles, even with several coats. painting small parts with a brush gave better result but getting a big

area smooth with a brush is quite difficult i guess. what is the experience of those of you who used the new lazertran?

how did you varnish it?

[rambinator]

bad news! the new lazertran doesnt stick to steel either. nor does the varnish. it peels off like skin.

I am clueless about what to do with the frontpanel... any ideas? is there a way to diy-etch the artwork?

[rambinator]

hi folks!

i have been playing around with old lazertran again. with a small piece of stainless steel board. it works like a charm with the reverse method, burning it in the oven. it almost looks like printed, just with a slight yellowish shine (i guess it is a minimum of remaining gum on the backside). i is also absolutely scratch resistant and when i apply one sprayed layer of varnish it gets a nice powderish look.

the big problem still remaining is: MY OVEN IS TOO SMALL FOR THE PANEL!

bummer...

just wanted to inform you about the fact theat it works.... in theory :(

[Altitude]

I have been using the new lasertran with excellent results.  More to follow...

[makari]

So I eventually finished my panel last week and it turned out quite good even though It took a lot of effort to get it right.

I went with lazertran inkjet, since I did'nt have a lazer printer and besides, my oven is to small anyway  :(

On thing you have to be carefull about is to make sure the surface is absolutely flat before applying the decal. I hade a few scratches on my panel that were more or less invisible after painting so i didnt think they would be visible, but after applying the varnish small bubbles formed along the scratches.

On one side the edges of the decal curled up around halv a millimeter or so which wasnt all that great but on the other side it stayed flat and there the edges were supprisingly hard to spot after varninshing.

On the whole, the results were more that acceptable and if it werent for the edges and a few to many bubbles I'd say it would look quite professional.