Advice needed - Kurzweil MIOS Editor idea inc some rare K2000 sysex files....

[dcer10]

Hi All,

Dont know how many Kurzweil users are on this forum, some I hope! I am really into K2000's!!

The K2000 has a huge system exclusive implementation, but it was never released which left the KRZ community outraged for years and made using the synth difficult in some aspects ie real time envelope control etc. I, and others I know, and probably a large amount of KRZ users out there have always wanted a way to control the K2000 in real time in every aspect, and even tho it has a huge midi implementation from CC's it doesnt cover everthing, some areas are badly lacking!

I have had this folder sitting on my PC I found ages ago which is a bunch of .h files and a compiler file and some other stuff inc a readme. This folder contains some code which aparently would allow you to develop an editor which uses the whole sysex implementation of the K2000. Im thinking it may have been made for use on an old mac as there is reference to 68K as a CPU??? Im just guessing.

If people dont mind, can you download this and tell me what is possible, in laymans terms (im not a programmer) bearing in mind that I would love to see this implemented somehow into a MIOS controller ie MB 64e or similar as a sysex editor for the K2000 synth. Even just a way to get this info to spit out all the sysex destinations for me to program up another editor (Kenton Control Freak or Reaktor or something) would be a huge leap in the right direction!! In fact, any comment by anyone who knows what there talking about might help me to see how to make any use of these files.

Thanks!!!!

K2KSYSEX.zip

[fluke]

That zip file does appear to be include files for ThinkC on a 68k Macintosh.  It doesn't have quite enough information. The README says:

While the K2000 manual documents the "sysex" protocol, it does not contain the data structure internals. This documentation contains "C" include files which explain the structure of the various K2000 objects.

Do you have a manual that says at least something about the sysex protocol?  This is a just set of data structures and it's hard to work out how that corresponds to the data sent over MIDI.

[dcer10]

I do have the manual, it doesnt reveal the full sysex implementation. Ive uploaded the sysex chapter it for you to look at if your interested. I can upload the whole manual if that helps??

What could be done using the info in the zip file if anything?

Thanks!!

John

30 SysEx.pdf

[Jidis]

John,

I have a 2500 rack and had the 2000 rack before it, along with Opcode's Galaxy Plus Editors package with the K2000 module. Haven't needed the 2500 as much (thanks to the DAW), but I ran the older stuff a bit, along with many an old 68k Mac. I thought Unisyn and/or SoundDiver had full editors for the Kurz as well now. ???

Now for the bad news. :-\

Don't know if it was the old Mac hardware, the Kurzweil processor (coincidentally an 68040 I think), or just the MIDI bandwidth itself, but the one thing I do remember was that it updated like a slug. I'm guessing MIDI, as the Kurz itself was pretty tolerable in that regard using the panel controls. It was neat having a nice GUI and all, but the heavy streams of data really knocked the system on it's butt. I'd have to check into it again with an updated host (maybe PC), but I have a gut feeling it wasn't the host. I wish SMDI had covered that sort of stuff too. Kurzweil were one of the early adopters of it, and it really took the sample dump thing to the next level. Probably would've worked wonders for SysEx.

Would be cool to see an external controller for it though. VAST is too deep for a handful of buttons and an LCD. ;)

Take Care,

George 

[dcer10]

Hiya George,

Good to hear that theres other K users out there! You should give it a go again for sure. What OS version do you have? Great leaps were made in the final updates for both units. Funny as I have been in 68K mac world with them too :) I have always found them to be very good machines if you stay within the polyphony boundaries. VAST is, VAST and could be explored a lot more with a hardware editor. I do know that the GUI of the K2000 and maybe 2500 is slow to update the screen, but I think you would find that its actual processing does not suffer from this lag, only the screen refresh. Im thinking of an editor that is able to be used without needing to see the Kurzweil, and hence this problem wouldnt matter.

I know there are a range of software based editors out there, but it is my dream to not have to have a PC in sight of my studio. Ive been down the PC path as far as it goes, and I found no satisfaction when comparing it to the hands on feel of the hardware. It has its advantages, and I wont knock it, but its just not the same to me.

Anyone who doesnt have a Kurzweil, get one now, there cheap and you wont find a better all round synth, sampler, sequencer with FX (noisy tho) for the money. It can be your whole studio if need be!!

In any case, id love for this years old sysex mystery to be solved once and for all, and I think this community is capable.

Any further info/thoughts etc would be great!!

Thanks,

John

[Jidis]

John,

I'll have to check on the OS, but it will likely be the latest (for the 2500RS). I'm not sure I did much SysEx after I got the 25. The 2K was right at the point I moved to ProTools (yuck >:() and wasn't needing as much sampler. I doubt the 25 is much faster with the big streams though. BTW- I seem to recall them sharing much of the SysEx code (I hope that's right). I think there were "2K only" editors which still worked on the 2500.

Thanks for that SysEx zip too. I'm looking forward to reading through the files, though my C knowledge leaves a lot to be desired.  :-[

Any particular areas you were looking for control of? I do remember using the LP/HP filters and some of the EQ blocks. Also, yes, I do remember the effects being a bit "gritty". When the 25 came out, there was an option for "real" built-in effects with a card or something, but I've had digital out and DAW stuff, so it wasn't worth that much. Never did get that DMTi either (seems sort of pointless now though).

George

PS- You want to see a  s l o w  screen refresh, you ought to check out the Roland E-660 parametric. Thing made me want to jump out a window. ;D It puts an actual friggin graphic curve on an LCD to represent the settings and comes from the late 80's or really early 90's (if you can imagine what that amounts to). Shame you can't overclock stuff like that, or better yet, upgrade the CPU. The one in the Kurzweil's probably worth about 50 cents now, and I think at the time, it was a couple notches above the one in the shipping Macs (Mac Quadras maybe).

[stryd_one]

Yeh k2*'s are slow and crap. You should give the 2600rs to me.

[fluke]

I do have the manual, it doesnt reveal the full sysex implementation. Ive uploaded the sysex chapter it for you to look at if your interested. I can upload the whole manual if that helps??

What could be done using the info in the zip file if anything?

The .h files describe the data structures and the manual has the encoding of 8 bit bytes to MIDI sysex, so in theory that's all you need.  But i don't know enough to about the synth to make a sysex message from scratch.  Do you by chance have any hex dumps of sysex messages?  Perhaps from a PC based editor?  If i had one to decode it should give me a better understanding of how it all works.

[dcer10]

Would any sysex dump do? If so I can make up one of a program.

[Jidis]

Yeh k2*'s are slow and crap. You should give the 2600rs to me.

No, it's just the 2500RS. Didn't mean to knock it like that. It's actually one of the most respected pieces of hardware I own. I've just been neglecting it lately. I've been slowly working on a workstation thing in the corner of my tracking room where it will end up. I'm hoping to get back to more musical stuff and thinking a dedicated sequence area with a bit of "real" hardware might help. ;)

John- It turned out to be running version 3.02 of the OS. I still haven't checked an editor with it. I may try that tonight, but I'm sort of worried about the current MIDI interface out there (a MOTU parallel MicroExpress). They've been known to mangle many a SysEx message.

Take Care,

George

[stryd_one]

Yeh I shoulda put a smiley after that sorry! I was just joking about me getting a freebie ;) I'm a big fan of the K2* series but never could afford the one I want... probably cause they just keep improving it :)

[dcer10]

HAHAAHAHAHA!!

Thats ok stryd_one, I think everyone knows youve got a good tone to your messages :) I had a quiet laugh!!! Buy a K2000, there 70% as good as a K2600 and 5% of the cost. Ive got 2 of them and when you look at bang for the buck, 16 outputs, 48note polyphony, 2 multi fx engines, 128mb of ram (plus a whole wack of other options I wont even go into) all in the VAST system... You can get 2 of them for around or less than $1000 these days which is pretty decent. Jidis Im still working on getting you the sysex file, I should have it tonight, I just cant pully myself away from my new sid im building :)

All the best,

John

PS Stryd_one, Ive been LMAO with your latest sets of footers on your messages too.. hehehe Esp the one about the search and wtfm :) As geeky as we all are its nice to see a sense of humour in all this!!

[Jidis]

No, I knew you were joking. I was just afraid it sounded like 'I' was calling the machines slow. ;D

Now the E-660, that !*&^@% thing is a snail. ;D ;D

John- Looking around a bit at some Kurz info. It may not have been all that much of an 040 at all. Maybe a 25MHz or something?? Still good for back then, just sucks that they aren't socketed like all our other stuff. IIRC, it may not have been the exact same version of the 040 that was in a Mac. Motorola had all these weird 040LC's and stuff. It could've been a DSP optimized one or something (who knows). Doesn't mean all that much when you think about it anyway. The Universal Audio cards and those lovely plugs I like so much are running on a CPU which was made for some sort of antique PCI video card. :D

George

[dcer10]

Jidis,

Thats interesting the UAD 1 cards use an old CPU, must be cheap to produce. I actually have the schematics for the K2000 here as well as a lot of other documentation, I should look around and see what CPU it is, maybe it could be swapped? I dont know that it would help the update issue tho?? I did see a good site suggesting some hardware mods to a K2 that I might look into...

http://members.cox.net/barryklein/k2000.htm

Ive ripped mine to bits and back again a few times now and soldered to the boards so I feel like I might not kill it!!

The more I look at it the more MIOS and K's are the perfect partners with the K's miriad of CC destinations (and hopefully soon a full sysex editor  ;D )

Im still going to post a sysex file b4 I go to sleep tonight :)

John

[fluke]

Would any sysex dump do? If so I can make up one of a program.

Anything is fine.  If you know what it does, even better, as you will know if i've decoded it properly. :)

[dcer10]

Ok, sorry for the delay, here it is! Its a dump of the master table and also the current programs loaded into it.

Let me know if you need more or any help in any way!!!!

Thanks,

John

k2000_dump.zip

[fluke]

So far i can tell you that the sysex file you posted contains 26 sysex messages.  The smallest is 341 bytes, which writes an program named "Tazer Bass" to id 207.  That's all i can get from staring at a hex dump, i'll have to write a 7 to 8 bit unpacker and take a closer look at the .h files next.

[dcer10]

So far all that sounds right! Im hoping we can identify each specific feature if possible in time, I can do some of the work if its repetative and easy instructions can be followed?? Theres a lot of features!!!

Let me know if I can help

Cheers,

John

[dcer10]

Anyone still interested in this topic?

I have a K2661 these days, and a hardware editor would be even more useful (and complex to make!). I would love to build a dedicated midbox performance controller for it, but midi cc's just wont cut it, and after all this time nobody seems to have cracked the Kurzweil sysex mystery!