Phonic Helix mixer/firewire audio interface

[madox]

Hi folk,

I'm considering buying a Phonic Helix 24 MkII mixer / firewire audio interface, and wondered if anyone here could offer opinions about this or other Phonic products? Would anyone have any suggestions for similar alternatives that would be worth considering?

I think the features for the money are really good.

I currently only have a Behringer Eurorack 1602, 12 channel analogue mixer, and a Numark DJ mixer. I could really use a lot more mixer channels, and a new PC audio interface (I'm using Intel's motherboard Analog Devices audio chipset  :( ).

I recently used my friend's M-Audio FireWire 410, and was very impressed with the processing performance and sound quality. The headphone out on the 410 has a practically imperceptable noise floor, which is a really surprising relief for extensive headphone monitoring. I am not expecting the same level of sound quality from the Helix, but if I could get similar processing performance, that would suit me.

The Helix firewire interface is rated as being 24 bit 96kHz; would anyone here know if this is a max data throughput that would be shared between the 18 audio channels, or would each channel be capable of streaming at 24 bit 96kHz simultaneously? I'm asking Phonic the same question, of course.

One downside of the interface, is that it only has two outputs. I'm not sure how much of an issue this will be for me. In the past, I have only really used my PC as a sequencer, not an audio workstation. I am now using a few soft synths, some PC sample work, and plan to record to PC hard disk. I figure I can do effects processing for the soft synths and samples entirely within software, so probably don't need to route these signals to individual outputs. This is going to be fairly new ground for me though, so any thoughts from more experienced musos would really be greatly appreciated.

One alternative I am considering, is using a pair of Phonic Firefly 808 interfaces, each having 8 analogue ins and 8 analogue outs (there are some more I/O's available, though these are what I would primarily see myself as using).

Firefly 808's also have a superior 24 bit 192kHz interface. Looking at the Firefly's interface spec leads me to think that these data rates are only shared between all the I/O being undertaken by the interface.

Thanks a lot for reading, and sharing any opinions.

Cheers

madox

[stryd_one]

these data rates are only shared between all the I/O being undertaken by the interface.

Very unlikely. Phonic gear is budget, but not that budget :)

Afraid I can't share any 1st hand experience though, sorry mate.

[madox]

Very unlikely. Phonic gear is budget, but not that budget :)

Afraid I can't share any 1st hand experience though, sorry mate.

Cool, cheers dude.

I forgot to mention, I do very little work with mic's or passive instruments, so the pre's are really not a big factor for me. In the past I have used the pre on my Nord G2X, which has been good enough for me.

Also, I've found the quality of the Behringer input stages to be sufficient for my uses, although I have only very rarely had anything better to compare to. My general feeling is that my kind of synth work is much less sensitive to the mixer inputs than something like orchestral mic'ing, or soulful jaz vocals etc. I know a lot of audio engineers in recording studios rate the Behringer desks very poorly. I did notice some difference using my friend's much higher priced Yamaha desk, though the difference didn't seem worth the money, on my meagre budget.

Cheers,

madox

[philetaylor]

Well you asked for opinions  :)

Personally I don't really like these analogue desks with digital outputs, they are great for recording live sessions etc but (IMHO) not a lot else.

Why not go the whole hog and get a 'proper' digital desk like a Yamaha 01v96. You can get an mLan (firewire) card for it and have 16 digital outputs AND inputs which means that once you have your music in the digital domain it stays there. It also has 16 analogue inputs and and motorized faders and is a proper 'pro' desk. More analogue inputs/outputs can be added via the built-in ADAT port (I use a behringer ADA8000 for this).

Another option is the Yamaha 01x which has mLan built-in. It only has 8 analogue inputs (and 8 faders) but you can add another 8 by daisy-chaining a Yamaha i88x.

I have all of the above and although they are 24bit/96khz capable, I have never used either at more than 48khz. I have still never met anyone that can repeatedly tell the difference between 44.1/96/192 in a true double-blind test and Ronny Morris (digital mastering engineer and the god of Yamaha mixers) is pretty vocal on that point and always records at the sample rate of the final media (44.1K for CD, 48K for video). 

There is a learning curve as digital desks are a lot more complicated but whenever I have to work on an analogue desk now I hate it! Take a look on ebay as there are always 01v96's and often 01x's on there.

I understand that this is often a financial decision but as has already been mentioned on another thread, I don't have a wife so not only do I have plenty of time to play with my midibox projects, I also have spare cash to spend on toys  :)   :)

With the shared bandwidth question, looking at the manual for the Phonic, it appears to be able to stream 18 seperate 24bit 96khz channels to the PC. I have checked as often manufacturers (including Yamaha) quote the number of channels at 44.1/48K and this channel count halves at 88.2/96 but this doesn't appear to be the case with the Phonic (as I said good for live recording as long as the analogue stage is OK!)

Cheers

Phil

[stryd_one]

Well you asked for opinions  :)

Personally I don't really like these analogue desks with digital outputs, they are great for recording live sessions etc but (IMHO) not a lot else.

They're exactly the same thing as an analog desk with a soundcard in the PC...

Why not go the whole hog

Because it costs about 10 times as much? It's a totally different product and audience really...

always records at the sample rate of the final media (44.1K for CD, 48K for video). 

Totally totally totally. We were talking about this in the chatroom a while back and I was trying to explain why I do several recordings; one at the highest rate possible (and that's where I do the mix and master if it's ITB) then re-record it to match the various target media. Takes a while but sounds better.

[philetaylor]

Because it costs about 10 times as much? It's a totally different product and audience really...

Not exactly 10 times, the phonic costs about £600 in the UK, I bought a used 0x1 on ebay for £350  :) I often see used 01x96's for under a grand.....

I am very prejudiced, I have used digital mixers for over 10 years and I can't think of a situation where I would rather use analogue. I do undersatand that some people prefer the fact that everything is immediately in front of them on an analogue desk but IMHO it doesn't take long to adapt.

Phil

[stryd_one]

It's just a figure of speech, not meant literally, just is another way to say "it costs a lot more"... Yaknow like as in "My wife is gonna kill me" ;)

I use a digi mixer too, a behringer ddx3216 stuffed with two adat cards running to a pair of ada8000s and a creamware a16, and lightpipe to a gina24 to hard disk record the submixes.

Of course I prefer the sound of analog mixers, but i have a pretty strict "i gotta be able to control it by midi" rule in my studio ...hence all the IO... i still have to patch manually though, which is balls. That's why I've been working on the switch matrix prject with tilted and co. I have some money put aside and if I manage to get a job you can expect to see that in action fairly soon. The control and flexibility that comes with replacing cables with bits is way nice.

To me, the preference is for digitally controlled analog mixing, so you get the sound and the control...but until very recently, that's been in the next 10*price bracket ;) Thanks to TK and LH and all, that has recently changed, and I'm among a few people going all-out on large mb-mixer based designs. It's gonna take a lot of time and hard work, and there's still a lot of money involved, but it's more in the low end of the digi mixer price backet, than the soundcraft end... but you get soundcraft-quality sound. :)

So, that's just to let you know, that I feel where you're coming from. Buuut I was not always so fortunate to have that kind of gear at my disposal, it's literally taken a great deal of blood sweat and tears to earn it all. Earlier on, I wanted a setup like the one I have now, but I was really strapped for cash, and I was using chains of 2nd hand budget DJ-style mixers worth about $20 a pop. They were chained into a couple of AWE64s I scored for free. For a long time I saved and then sufficed with a behringer 2004. When I finally had it, I followed it up with the gina (older model than I have now). That was a rad setup, to me. These days if I were on a similar budget, the money saved by buying one of these soundcard+mixer combined devices would be a solid seller for me. I still would lust after an 01v, but that doesn't mean it's going to join my price bracket. Just to get what I had damned-near killed me (and I do mean that literally)

[madox]

Well you asked for opinions  :)

Yeah, absolutely, and your input was exactly the kind of response I was looking for.

...the phonic costs about £600 in the UK...

£600 is a lot for that mixer; I can find it for a much better price shipped to Australia from the US. I don't know if you have high tax or transport costs. I thought Aus was already pretty bad for shipping rates.

I will definitely keep an eye on mixers on ebay though. I am a little hesitant to buy this kind of product second hand though. Mixers can really get trashed by misuse.

I have confirmed with Phonic that the mixer is capable of full bandwidth for each channel.

I have never used a digital desk, so can't yet relate to the comparison being discussed here. What would be the main characteric differences in the timbre of each option? I am familiar with the change in character of sound when digitally recorded vs. played live strait from the jack of an analgue synth; is it this kind of difference in character that one gets from a digital vs. analogue desk?

The only reason I may want to record at 96kHz, is if doing a lot of processing/editing on a DAW. I don't know if it makes much of a difference or not (apart from my hard drive usage). I have done listening tests comparing 16 bit 44.1kHz recordings vs 24 bit 96kHz recordings with a profesional audio rack in an annechoic chamber at uni; it was very subtle, barely noticeable in the highest frequencies. These days, I doubt my hearing is any where near good enough to pick that up (I was young at the time of the test).

Well, my wife is drawing me away now (of course this is part cause of my time and financial constraints).

Thanks you both so much for your input on this; much appreciated.

madox

[stryd_one]

I have never used a digital desk, so can't yet relate to the comparison being discussed here. What would be the main characteric differences in the timbre of each option? I am familiar with the change in character of sound when digitally recorded vs. played live strait from the jack of an analgue synth; is it this kind of difference in character that one gets from a digital vs. analogue desk?

Yeh it's like that. Hard to explain, but you know it when you hear it ;)

[philetaylor]

Yeh it's like that. Hard to explain, but you know it when you hear it ;)

You took the words right out of my mouth (I won't type the next line of the song  ;)  )

Personally I like the 'clean' sound of digital desks but you are best to see if you can borrow one and see what you think.

As I say, I am still unconvinced reagarding higher sample rates but I would always record at 24 bit, Yamaha mixers internally work at 32bit and use a clever dithering algorythm if you want to master down to 16bit (some devices just cut the bottom bits.)

I have to slightly correct my previous post, I mixed a gig on an analogue Midas console last year, what a great desk (and a frightening price, the roadcase cost more than my 01v!)

Cheers

Phil