Open source documentation for MIDIphy stuff?

[Corwin]

Hi, maybe I’m missing it but where are the open-source files for all the MIDIbox stuff that MIDIphy sells?

[latigid on]

Did you purchase anything through midiphy? Just email a reply to your purchase order and we can supply certain schematics (some are based on uCapps designs).

[Corwin]

No, I was looking into DIYing a CV sequencer from scratch.

[latigid on]

Alright then, have fun! 

[Corwin]

Sorry, I’m still confused where the open-source documentation is?

[Hawkeye]

The source code is available on github: https://github.com/midibox/mios32
The schematics are available on ucapps.de and on wiki.midibox.org - this should get you going DIYing a CV sequencer from scratch.

Have fun and have a nice upcoming weekend!
Peter

 

[Corwin]

I’ve seen what’s on ucapps and MIDIbox, I am looking for the newer stuff that MIDIphy has put out. Unless I’m missing something on the ucapps site?

[latigid on]

What you see on uCapps is all you need to DIY a SEQ.

http://ucapps.de/midibox_seq_manual_hw.html

A SEQ is just two displays and series of encoders, buttons and LEDs connected to DIN and DOUT modules. You address the buttons in the HW config file; this way you can have all buttons and LEDs in the arrangement you like. You then need some sort of Core (with SD card) and a MIDI IO board or just use USB. CV would need an AOUT module plus an additional DOUT module.

Best of luck with your design.

 

[Hawkeye]

What are you looking for exactly?

The midiphy schematics are not publicly available, these are only handed out to customers, if required, which is similar to what Wilba's did when he was actively designing PCBs. 

Usually, the schematics would be required to find and fix a build problem, but these problems are most often and more easily found and corrected by direct support, which is mostly done by latigid on. If i recall it correctly, there is not a single SEQ v4+ that was not completed due to a tech question.

If you want to start scratch-building a new sequencer, really, ucapps.de has the best documentation out there, that you can think of.

Best regards!
Peter

 

[Corwin]

sorry, I’m just confused. I know about what’s on the ucapps site. But there’s MIDIbox stuff that’s not on that site. I thought MIDIbox was all open-source and non-commercial, but I actually have to buy stuff to access the documentation?

[latigid on]

Sorry for the confusion, really what is written in the above posts is all correct and there is not much more to add. But to clear it up: all MIDIbox platform software is open-source, free for personal use. Some circuits are too, but some are not and this has been the case for quite some time. It is even less common to publish layout files. The non-commercial part means in this context that you are not permitted to run MIDIbox software in assembled devices that you sell.

Peter and I provide a valuable service, which takes a significant portion of our lives, in making great, professional-quality projects available. We have the full support of the MIDIbox creator, Thorsten Klose, to do this.

I hope that your confusion is resolved and you can work on your design with the documentation at hand.

 

[Antichambre]

1 minute ago, latigid on said:

The non-commercial part means in this context that you are not permitted to run MIDIbox software in assembled devices that you sell.

Except if you design your own device(an original one) and you asked Thorsten's blessing to sell it.

[Corwin]

Is there any way to tell what is open source and what isn’t? I am finding this all extremely confusing, I thought MIDIbox was always open source and collaborative. 
 

on a similar note, does anyone know the licensing for the software? I tried looking it up after reading this thread since the person above said that’s the one thing that is all completely open but couldn’t find anything about software licensing, only the hardware license (tapr?)

I had hoped to base my project on some MIDIbox designs but now im concerned that I’m gonna make a mistake and some part of it is not allowed to be copied.

[Hawkeye]

The software license is documented here:

http://ucapps.de/mios.html

Software Architecture

Open-Source: yes(completely)
License: Personal, non-commercial use only

---

So, in short words, you can use MIOS for personal non-commercial projects at any time, you have full open source software access via github.
If you are planning to sell anything (hardware or software), just ask TK. - it's not super complicated.

Have a good day and best regards!
Peter

[Antichambre]

19 minutes ago, Corwin said:

Is there any way to tell what is open source and what isn’t? I am finding this all extremely confusing, I thought MIDIbox was always open source and collaborative. 

Guy! You can understand that when someone spent a lot of time to design a device, he doesn't want to see it cloned and resold without his consent, yes or no? That's the reason we tend to do not share the layout of our project, just to protect it.
Watch to Mutable it's open source but Emilie doesn't share her pcb layout.

Now start your own, for a CV sequencer everything is available, from schematics to code, if you have question just ask it here, people will answer and you will see how much MB is a collaborative platform.
Share the result and you will also get the feedback to know if it has a commercial interest.

Best regards
Bruno

[Corwin]

58 minutes ago, Hawkeye said:

The software license is documented here:

http://ucapps.de/mios.html

Software Architecture

Open-Source: yes(completely)
License: Personal, non-commercial use only

---

So, in short words, you can use MIOS for personal non-commercial projects at any time, you have full open source software access via github.
If you are planning to sell anything (hardware or software), just ask TK. - it's not super complicated.

Have a good day and best regards!
Peter

Is there really no further detail than that? Usually there are clear stipulations about how the software can be used or modified, what rights the original creator retains, etc.

35 minutes ago, Antichambre said:

Guy! You can understand that when someone spent a lot of time to design a device, he doesn't want to see it cloned and resold without his consent, yes or no? That's the reason we tend to do not share the layout of our project, just to protect it.

I’m not trying to clone or resell anything without consent. If someone doesn’t want to share their work for fear someone else will use it, that’s fine...but it also isn’t open-source.

38 minutes ago, Antichambre said:

Watch to Mutable it's open source but Emilie doesn't share her pcb layout.

Uh, yes she does. She shares the PCB layout files, the schematics, the panel design files, and the firmware. It’s all completely open, even for commercial use.

42 minutes ago, Antichambre said:

if you have question just ask it here, people will answer and you will see how much MB is a collaborative platform.
Share the result and you will also get the feedback to know if it has a commercial interest.

Im here asking questions, aren’t I?

not interested in making a commercial product but thanks

[Hawkeye]

@Corwin Probably all has been said now, there should be need to escalate things further, that is, if you, as the original poster are not out for an escalation?

Of course, this is highly subjective, but as a personal sidenote, I don't see how "open source", "free for personal, non-commercial use" could be enhanced any further without adding pages of useless legal smallprint, that does not really add any more information?

You're here to create a new personal project?
Absolutely awesome! Welcome to the forums! If you want and have the time, please share your ideas, create a new thread for discussion with others. Feel free to use and enhance the available software in any way that is required for your project, it is all good.

Have a good friday and a nice weekend!
Peter

[Corwin]

Not escalating anything, just trying to get some clarification on what parts of the MIDIbox ecosystem are open, what parts are closed, etc. (but yeah, don’t really appreciate the insinuation from the other guy that I’m trying to do something dishonest or underhanded when it’s the exact opposite: I’m just trying to get a handle on what is and isn’t allowed.)

(responding to your personals aside, licensing is important for developers. It tells us how we can use and share the existing code, the code we modify, etc. there’s good reason the open source community has settled on these detailed licenses. I don’t know anyone who would be willing to put much time and effort into something without a clear idea of how it could be used going into the future.)

but anyway, what I was hoping to get information on was the hardware, and it seems like that’s a mix of open (licensed under tapr) and closed. Still trying to figure out if there’s any easy way to know what is open and what is not?

[Hawkeye]

Please define "open" - anything that has been released in the recent decade or so, is based on TK.'s designs. This ecosystem, the MIDIbox hardware platform is fully documented, with free schematics and there is full source code available, everything is free for personal usecases. That's an awesome gift from TK. to the world!

"Manufacturers" like Wilba/SmashTV, now sold via modularaddict.com or midiphy.com have just added a few bells and whistles to TK.'s ideas, like some fancy OLEDs or just added nice cases - but the base, the ecosystem is always the same, the modular, fully documented MIDIbox hardware platform. As "product development" takes time, effort and money, these manufacturers usually opt to protect their investment by not fully releasing e.g. CNC case plans or gerbers. These "products" are ok'ed by TK. for the reason, that a broader base of users can have access to the MIDIbox platform. Otherwise, creating everything from scratch will take time. E.g. i've built my first SEQ v4 completely from scratch in 2010, back then i had the time for it and it was an awesome experience (it's even documented somewhere in the forums with a photo tutorial, search for "ebony seq v4"). But not everyone wants to do that, or has the time for it.

So, to answer your question: assume everything listed on ucapps.de is released under a "free for personal use license", everything sold commercially has to have been "ok'ed" by TK. before and those products do not automatically inherit full disclosure obligations of every file needed to create the product. If a "vendor" asks TK., if it is ok to release a MIDIbox-based product commercially, TK. will always ask for guaranteed customer support and probably look for a good track record in the forums of the respective creator over some years.

Speaking for midiphy - in your own project, if you ever plan to use any unclear feature of our products, e.g. how the superflux LEDs are controlled, how the activity matrix is driven, or what is necessary for noiseless OLED operation, just ask the respective questions in the forums and i am sure you'll get technical and detailed answers.

Best regards and have fun creating!
Peter

[Corwin]

>So, to answer your question: assume everything listed on ucapps.de is released under a "free for personal use license", everything sold commercially has to have been "ok'ed" by TK. before and those products do not automatically inherit full disclosure obligations of every file needed to create the product. If a "vendor" asks TK., if it is ok to release a MIDIbox-based product commercially, TK. will always ask for guaranteed customer support and probably look for a good track record in the forums of the respective creator over some years.

 

Thanks, that definitely explains things a little better. Sounds like the older projects are all open to one degree or another but that people can modify and sell the designs and keep those modifications closed? That doesn’t sound like what I read in the tapr license but maybe I read it wrong or maybe the community here just has its own conventions; either way, that’s why I was so confuses.

(back to your side note from earlier, discussions like this are exactly why most open source licenses are lengthy and detailed. It’s important to know how rights/protections transfer to derivative works, whether we are allowed to share those derivative work [or are actually *obligated* to share], exactly the kind of stuff you described.)

[Corwin]

I’m thinking I probably won’t move forward with midibox as the base for the project I have in mind. I think I understand (roughly) the hardware licensing but I would like to work with software that has a better defined license. I also have antichamber in my DMs sending me angry messages, accusing me of intentionally starting trouble and being disrespectful and telling me to be quiet. Don’t really want to deal with that every time I have a question :/

thanks to Hawkeye (edit: and latigidon) for being patient with my questions (we eventually got there!) and generally being helpful. I apologize if anyone thought I was being disrespectful. I’m not new to open source, software development or diy synths, but I am new to MIDIbox, and things seem to be handled a bit differently Here. So I hope that explains my confusion and my questions.

Edited November 29, 2019 by Corwin

[Antichambre]

1 hour ago, Corwin said:

but yeah, don’t really appreciate the insinuation from the other guy that I’m trying to do something dishonest or underhanded when it’s the exact opposite

Hey, I never said that!!! Just PM you cause I don't want to make the show and I asked you to be quiet!

 

Just now, Corwin said:

I apologize if anyone thought I was being disrespectful

That's fine!

Best
 

[Corwin]

Please stop sending me notifications, I already got enough of them from the rude DMs you sent me.

[Antichambre]

Do not misrepresent people's words next time.

Have a good day!
Bruno

[Corwin]

This is what I was referring to:

> You can understand that when someone spent a lot of time to design a device, he doesn't want to see it cloned and resold without his consent, yes or no? That's the reason we tend to do not share the layout of our project, just to protect it.

like I said already, I am not trying to clone or sell anything. I’ve just been trying to figure out what is allowed and what isn’t, specifically so I can respect the wishes of the creators.