Midibox64 DJ Mixer

[joleonekc]

Hello,

I apologize if this has already been asked. I have a program (Virtual DJ) that will allow remote midi controllers. So, i came up with the idea of making one that would suit my needs.

I have tons and tons of questions about starting a project like this. I know the basics (IE soldering, etc), but I do not know much about circuits. I also do not know much about MIDI. I use a midi keyboard, so i know it's uses. I just dont know all of the technicals about why and how it works.

Is there someone on this board that would be able to help me out? I have a design that I would like to use, but I simply do not know where to go from there. I have chosen an enclosure for the box, and I know where I need knobs, sliders, and buttons. I am not asking this person who is willing to help to do the project for me, as I would like to get the self-satisfaction of doing that myself.

I also have a question about jog wheels. I would also like to implement, if possible a couple of job wheels on my box. Any ideas where to get jog wheels from? Any ideas on how I could make one? (i have a really great idea for a jog wheel, just not enough electrical circuit knowledge to make it work.

Thanks in advance for any help that anyone could provide. ( i have all sorts of design information on the box that I would like to build if you have any more specific questions! Thanks once again!)

[joleonekc]

I forgot to mention that I have read this forum quite a bit, and that I have also done some research on the internet. So, while I am new at the building of such device,  I think I know about enough to get me into trouble.

Thanks once again

[stryd_one]

I think I know about enough to get me into trouble.

Ahhh, wise words! :)

The best thing to do would be to read here and the wiki (don't forget the wiki!) and put your ideas forward. Lots of people will give you lots of different advice and then you can decide which is best for you....

[tos]

4 any DJ mixer/controller ideas I will be happy to offer support and explanations, downside is that I am not familiar with Virt. DJ but to Traktor (Arr, ye fine app that be!). But I will help as much as I can (maybe even dwnload VDJ in order to give answers). This would be a good time to post some of them. stryd_one is also worth a milion photons as many other membaaz are in the means of willingness to offer wise suggestions/solutions. My advice: Just dont be arogant and pushy and help will pour like honey.

[joleonekc]

stryd_one.. thanks for the comments.....

ToS.... I will probably post my progress in here. This evening I went to talk to a man about some plexiglass material for the enclosure. So I think I have that figured out. I might be able to get the enclosure built for under $50 USD. (24"W x 10"D) The further I read in the forum, the more it sorta tells me about how I can build this unit. And that's a great help. I also found a nice local source (FL, US) for LEDs and switches.

I also tried using my MIDI keyboard as a test to see how some of the functions work in VDJ... they work exactly the way I want them to. Now ToS, any suggesting on a jog wheel or something so I can scratch? (please see further down for more information on my jogwheel ideas) This seems to be something that i can not figure out. Also, I have a question about LEDs and lighted switches. For instance, if i assign a button to create a loop in VDJ, it would be cool if a light would be on indicating that you are in loop mode. I have also considered using lighted switches for this application as well. I am just not sure on how the functionality of it all would work out, since there are several loop buttons (for beat lengths) on the board I would like to build. (it will look VERY similar to the VDJ default skin) Perhaps that is something that you can download VirtualDJ and give me your thoughts on the subject. ( www.virtualDJ.com )

Jog Wheel ideas..... This is one idea i had, tell me if it sounds ridiculous or not. Since I can not find a jog-wheel to buy, I would like to take two old HDDs. take the platters and shafts out, and use them as some sort of jog wheel/scratch/table control device. if possible I would like to be able to rotate it 360 degrees. That way I can sorta have a device to spin my record to it's place/cue/etc. I think i have figured a way out to put some sort of tension on it, that way it does not just arbitrarily spin on it's own. I do not however, have ANY idea how i could turn this into some sort of midi switch/pot/encoder/etc. even if it had a click on it when you spun it around like an encoder, that's cool. just not sure how to manufacter something like that.

I will post an early prototype pic of my idea here shortly... And thanks once again for all the help.

[joleonekc]

Ok,

Here is my initial plan... actually, this is trial number 2. This utilizes all of the functions that I use on a daily basis with Virtual Dj. You will notice that the graphic almost seemed divided into a top part and a bottom part. The top part (3.5" deep) contains the cue points/remix console, as well as main volume faders, recording controls, etc. The bottom part (6.5" deep) contains the meat and gravy of the device. I have left the spot open for the jogs as of now... let me know what you think....

http://www.homesbyjoeonline.com/images/prototype2.jpg

This is a side profile of the sort of enclosure that I plan to use. 1/8" black plexiglass for the bottom and sides, and black painted sheet metal top pieces. The finished device will be about 24" wide.(mine wont be so rounded)

http://www.homesbyjoeonline.com/images/enclosure.jpg

I have also thought about putting a BNC connector on the back for accessory power so that i can run one of these...

http://www.musiciansfriend.com/product/Furman-Gooseneck-BNC-Lamp-?sku=811052

But, it's a 12v device. Can I use a 12v supply? It seems as everyone here is using 9Vdc. How would i wire in a dimmer to that?

By looking at my design, any ideas where I can and cannot use pots? Is there any limit on the number of buttons/pots/encoders ? (if any of the graphics need explanation, please let me know as I will gladly answer any questions. It's outstanding that there is a forum out here to help out people like me! It seems like i have a million questions right now!)

[Sinnsyk]

Your pictures didn't work...

There is a limit of pots and encoders, but please, remember that you will need a DINX4 module per 32 inputs. So, try not to use 34 inputs, because there will be a lot of unused inputs. Try to use 32, or 64.

For the loops, can you assign a rotary encoder (endless knob), to select loop-length, and then a button to start/stop the loop.

[tos]

[please ask if there is some obscurity]

loop mode indication - if VDJ is able to send back MIDI status on such chages [loop in/out, playing, eq lo killed, etc.] than there should be no problem with receiving them a setting DOUT status of specific pin.

Since they(Atomix) have their hardware console (as much as I can tell) that function might be available(via sysex probably, IF the console is beeing connected via MIDI (which I doubt)). You should try to connect VDJ<->MIDI Yoke<->MIDIOX and see if enything is sent from the VDJ when you push loop set in.

lighted switches(backlit pushbuttons) - the are usually a tincy-wincy bit more expensive that the usual ones. This does not represent a problem until you get to have < 10-15 swithces on your consoles. But If you can afford them that is better solution than a switch+f.pannel-mounted-led pair(if you are building faceplate all by yourself like me).

BTW, I'm still not usin' backlit pushbuttons. It is more fun this way.

default skin - Well...i hate it, and there is a certain problem that you have pannels that are "tabbed" so you can't replicate onscreen app. C'mon, try to think out of the box a little, look at some real-life mixers, cdplayer+mixer integrated solutions, see what is the best 4 u. Programmers thought how will it look like on the screen and real life & live mixing if relatively different.

hdd jog wheel - 1st, the problem is how to detach a hdd motor from it's chasis. 2nd the jog wheel IS supposed to be able to rotate 360deg. Usually encoders (detended or not) are used for jogwheels but There is a post on this forum explaining how to create a encoder from a electro-motor(or step motor). I think that you will drop the idea when you get to the part of making & integrating such jogs into the MB.

12V - Mine runs smoothly on 12V DC, question is how much current draws that BNC lamp. I personally am considering to put two fem.usb connectors and wire them up so you can plug into either of them one usb-led-goosneck-lamp and a bankstick key. (but since I still don't have the need for bankstick this is just an idea)

pictures - Bronken links here too, check what is up with thos pics so we can give you usefull advice on pots. But anyway, you don't need al the pots that you can find in VDJ, probably just the ones that have to be turned simultaniously in pairs, with two(or more) hands(ie. Eq pots, filter/effect pots...).

sinnsyk encoder, loops - r you trying to replicate some real hardware, eh :-) ? With MBHP there is always a possibility, the only question is are you willing to spend some time pondering.

[joleonekc]

ToS,

I want to say thanks for stopping in and checking on me. This is so completely outstanding!

I checked on the links, and it appeared that my firewall went ape on me. Netgear, go figure. Please dont expect much of these pix, as they are just like some concept ideas. I am going to try to sit down here this evening and tomorrow evening with the measurements of the components I have so far, and do some sort of actual faceplate template drawing.

As far as imitating some real hardware? Sorta, yes and sorta no. VDJ offers XP10 consoles, but my issue is this. First off, I have actually thought about using real tables and the time coded vinyl. The problem is, I have to have a new sound card etc. Then, if i do that I can not use my laptop at gigs like I do now. I have searched high and low for external sound cards, and I simply can not get what i want. I found a place on the internet that sells a DIY MIDI to USB converter. So if i can get that working, then this console I build will be able to do many things that I could do w/ real turntables and a mixer on both my desktop and my laptop w/ the current sound cards, etc. Secondly, two XP10 consoles are 600 Euros and I still dont have the exact functionality that I want.

I will also look into the loop mode indication stuff as you said, and let you know how that turns out. However, as far as I know the XP10 console is USB.. But, I am not sure if that is MIDItoUSB or not.

As far as the jog wheel, I think I may have come up with a solution. I went to www.Mouser.com and found p/n: 688-SRGPHJ3200. This seems to be the jog wheel I am looking for. Now, I may mount a disc on top of the jog wheel to increase it's size, as that is the main objective in using a HDD platter. For now, I have added the jog wheel to my parts list and I will continue to further contemplate the idea. Would it be cool if it spun like a real record? well yeah, but i think that is a little beyond the complexities that I want to get into. This project alone is going to consume ALOT of my time. My main focus is to have a larger size than the jog wheel so i can position the vinyl by moving the jog wheel, if that makes any sense (i dont do alot of scratching, its more like starts, etc)

The BNC lamp runs off of 12v 5W of power. If I have calculated it right on the power adaptor i want to use (12v/1A) then I should have 12 Watts of power with no calculated resistance from the supply. Please tell me if I am wrong on this one or not, as i am just not sure. This was the biggest 12v supply i could find so far.

I have a few more items that I need to search for, and I will hopefully be able to post a parts list, then perhaps combined with the photos, that may REALLY help you get an idea as to what I am trying to do!

Just FYI... here's my count so far.....

Encoders - 5

Pots/Faders - 20

Switches - 108 (with jogs, each has 10 tactiles I believe)

I am not concerned about wasting inputs, as I know they will be there and just grounded (i think).

Thanks man

[tos]

About using real hardware, I proposed that just so you can get the hang of what layout fits you best, not to get you off the MB, trust me, it is a great andventure. As an example: I went down to the audio gear store and measured the span between EQ knobs and channel faders on Pioneer mixer.

I'm not sure for that 688-SRGPHJ3200, I'd need someone else on the forum to confirm that or give you a advice about using the right encoder for jogDial.

The biggest power supply, OMG how heavy do you think that mixer of yours should be.

As far as xfader and channel faders, you would probably want 4,5-6cm for xfade and 6-10cm for channel faders. Once again you should try and mix on a few different dj mixers [with various lenghts of faders].

Free analogue input pins should be grounded, yes. May I ask, why 5 encoders? What would be the purpose of their?

[joleonekc]

ok

The 5 encoders were placed in my schematic, (even tho it's not labled) as deck 1 loop start position and deck 1 loop length, deck 2 loop start position and deck 2 loop length (you will see these labled on the schematic as start & loop (top middle). and the fifth one is the encoder for the lcd display/menu job at the top right hand corner.

The only reason i am going to put the LCD display on it is for the debugging features. I really doubt if someone could convert me from Virtual DJ, so I am not really worried about changing setups, etc. Does this setup need some sort of wiring for a battery backup when the device is not plugged in to keep whatever is stored in the memory?

About the power supply, knowing that i wanted to use that 12v/5watt light I knew that I needed something that would pack sort of a punch. I found a wall transformer (wall-wart) one with a nice plug at Jameco.com that supplies 12v/1A. Which should be enough since i have not decided to put a butt-ton of LEDs everywhere. I chose the BNC connector because the lights are common to obtain, and the BNC power deal is almost sorta a standard on studio equipment. (perhaps not the newest gear)

About enclosures - I have found a place that i can obtain locally 1/4" plexiglass at outstanding prices for myself. I figured $25 worth of plexiglass, and $10 worth of sheet metal at the hardware store to make the face plate and I am good to go. Are there any known problems with using a partial metal enclosure (ie - grounds, problems with)? And, since i will be painting the sheet metal, I plan to paint it white, then to mask off any design lines and lettering/labeling before i paint the black coat. Paint the black coat, remove your masking lines VERY carefully, VIOLA! Painted letters on the enclosure! I've also found so far that it's cheaper to go with sheet metal instead of a plexi-front, because if you screw up you can go get more sheet metal any day of the week at the local hardware store.

Since I am introducing external DC power to this box, do I need to worry about interference of some type? Do i need to use shielded wire/cables? I know that MIDI cables are shielded. Or, is this just a concern with analog audio?

I have searched high and dry and so far have not come up with any tactile switch covers that I like. Do you have any good sources for that? I found some that are like 1/2" for a black button. Do you think that is too large?

What is the deal with this 2.56" or something spacing that i see people talking about when designing boards? How do i need to take that into consideration? Since i am such a n00b, I am only going to fuss w/ making the PCB boards for my switches and pots. I plan to buy the kits with the image pre-burned if i can to simplify things.

Slidepots/Crossfaders - I have chosen so far to use these panasonic units for this. They are linear and 10k .5w. I will be buying a 100mm rail-guided unit for the actual crossfader. Then i am going to buy 100mm cheaper non-rail units for the rest of the large appearing faders on the schematic. For the smaller ones, I have chosen 60mm travel distance sliders. All same specs and manufacturer. I just need to find knobs for them.

Pics of the enclosure plans to come soon... thanks man!

[Therezin]

Jog-wheels: Depending on the way that VDJ handles the inputs on record positioning and so on, I think the best solution would just be a simple rotary encoder - even a detented one (one with "click-stops") could be used, as I'm told it is a relatively simple matter to convert them to non-detented operation.

Power/shielding concerns: Every midibox ever built is powered off DC. AC current will introduce interference, but the general concensus is that DC will not, even in the same cable - look at Wisefire's Midibox Axe thread (http://www.midibox.org/forum/index.php?topic=6431.0) for more info.

The only thing I can think of with the 2.56" spacing as you call it is to space out everything such as buttons and LEDs in multiples of 2.54mm, since veroboard (vectorboard, prototyping board, stripboard) is set out with holes 2.54mm apart (The reason it's such a strange number as 2.54 is because it's 0.1 of an inch). If you're mounting your frontpanel switches and LEDs on veroboard, then you're in for a headache if you don't space them that way.

Oh yeah, tact switch covers: I've not really found too many great ones, but they are out there. Hopefully someone will reply to this thread with where they can be found, so I can get some of the damn things as well  :P

/Edit: Added URL for midibox axe

[joleonekc]

Therezin,

Thanks for straightening me out for the measurements of the grid for the prototyping board!

I see on the forum that there is like two terms for the same thing or not? Is there a difference between DIN and DINX4? or is this just simple notation saying four DIN circuits?

Thanks again!

[stryd_one]

Well a DINx1 is a digital input module allowing 8 digital inputs, but the PCB's which you can buy from Mike and Smash are four of those in one board, otherwise referred to as a DINx4... Because almost all the time people use a DINx4 module, sometimes people abbreviate DINx4 to DIN, which causes some confusion, as it could imply DINx1 or DINx4.... or DINx2 or whatever... Or it could be referring to a single digital input, of which a DINx1 provides 8, and a DINx4 provides 32...

All this is confusing...uhm.... I guess this is the most correct format:

DINx4 = 4 DINx1 modules on one PCB

DINx1 = 8 digital inputs provided by a shift register IC

DIN = a single digital input

Maybe TK says it best: http://www.ucapps.de/mbhp_din.html

[pay_c]

Just a small sidekick by me: Keep in mind that you bring in latency by using midi controllers. For most stuff, this will not play any role (e.g. Kill EQ´s) but some things may be a a little to slow then. The most common thing which is nerving is the crossfader having latency. I tried this with Traktor (some similar design like yours) and went back to the 2 Audio channel Out and in a "normal" mixer solution.

So perhaps think of using the same solution - the MIDI controller for all that parameter controlling (gain, playback, speed ... whatever) and the time-critical stuff still in an analogue form (crossfader, perhaps channel faders) having a two-channel audio card somewhere.

Hope that helps a little bit.

Greetz!

[tos]

pay_c, why have you been hidin' that from us? :D

Im at the 70% of making a full-blown 4 channel TDS3 Controller to find out that it might have some noticable lag. Tnx 4 the info man. That should be put in some quotes section on wiki.

This reminds me of the first effects in winamp running on P1 233MHz 32MB SDRAM, with minimum 250ms lag on anything that you do...and you can get used to it an calibrate yourself to the lag, yes. And it is fun.

[pay_c]

:-\

Wiki is a good idea indeed, but there is no Traktor topic up to now I think. It would really be some good idea, also for other infos (e.g. how to set up Traktor together with MIOS).

Maybe I´ll open up something like that, only problem in the moment is time. As I´m only online in work I don´t want to write something a few hours, you know... :P

[MTE]

Wiki is a good idea indeed, but there is no Traktor topic up to now I think. It would really be some good idea, also for other infos (e.g. how to set up Traktor together with MIOS).

Maybe I´ll open up something like that, only problem in the moment is time. As I´m only online in work I don´t want to write something a few hours, you know...

Ich helf dir gerne, habe so etwas in der Form auch vor wenn ich meinen neuen Traktor-Prototyp baue :)

in english :

I´ll help too, cause i build in next time my new Traktor-prototype :)

Regards

MTE

[pay_c]

;D

Perfect! Just gimme some hint when you wrote the article (best with some "addendum" or so) and I´ll throw in the rest which could be useful.

Greets!

[ranger930]

Hi,

i like traktor 262,

best stable software for dj'ing  ;)

is osc protocol the solution for all our problems ?

is serial transmition really up to 20 %faster than midi ?

i'm dreaming about an xone 3d with support from traktor over osc.

but who knows about osc ?

best regards

ranger930

[joleonekc]

ok so not to kill the idea of a midibox or anything, but it seems as tho there are several people in this forum using DJ progs. Has anyone tried like time-coded vinyl and thte standard mixer setup with like traktor or VDJ or something else?

[tos]

Hm, Final Scratch is a wee-bit overpriced for my taste.

About wiki page, how about we open up a page and make some sort of list of ppl that are using DJ-ing software (and what software) and ppl that are up for some wiki write-ing.

Arr, what says ye?

[joleonekc]

that was easier than making a bargain with Davey Jones, matey....

[Sinnsyk]

Ever tried Ableton Live for your DJ stuff?

[joleonekc]

No, I have never tried Ableton Live..... I have however been contemplating the use of the VDJ time-coded vinyl however...

I have been doing some research, and the cost of this box is going to be around $500-$600 US. So, I honestly do not know what I am truly going to do. If I do go the route with turntables, then I will definately still be building a midi-box. It will just have to be a different design. More like a UC33e, but I'd like to have more controls on it. This would allow me to operate the built-in sampler in VDJ and use the faders to activate the sample on slide.

I will however look for a demo or something of ableton live and atleast check it out!