Newbie kid. Chosing SID chip...ETC.

[narf]

Hi!

I'm very excited to get started with this project.  I'm going to be visiting the swapmeet to scavange up some C64's... but before I do that I need to find out exactly what I want to get out of this project and I'm hoping you can help me.

The sound I'm looking for (aka 8580 or 6581?)

I make experimental hip-hop/trip-hop, sometimes with a touch of electronica (big fan of Daft Punk) but not too much. I'd like to get the right chip for my music. Maybe you guys can make suggestions based on the types of sounds I'm looking for:

For drums: I'd like the bass drums to have depth and snares to be UGLY and sort of mushy... the descriptive word would be "raw" here

For bass sounds: I like raspy stuff but that still holds clarity...

For leads: not too clean but very snappy..

Filter: something that will have a LOT of effect on what's being filtered (i.e. very noticeable resonant sweeps)

Maybe that was useless but as you can see there's a conflict between dirty vs. clean in the sond I want to get out of this.  If you could make some suggestions that'd be awsome. In depth descriptions of each chips sond characteristics will also be appreciated (even after having read a bunch of posts I'm still a little mixed up on their sound characteristics)

Will I be able to do this?

The only experience I have soldering is having made a bunch of high quality TRS cables and resoldered some faulty connections on a portable mp3 player... I also soldered some tiny cables inside an Emu Emax.. HAH.  So I'm not very experienced and as far as technical electronic knowledge, I have none.  When I look at circuit designs n stuff I KINDA understand but i think it's more like I THINK I KINDA understand.

I'm geeky and usually stare at stuff that interests me until I get it though.. what do you guys think.. any ex-newbies that can provide some anectdotes?

Ordering Parts & Building the da thang

I've already checked out MashTV and their packages with the pre-made pcb and it seems like an excellent choice... are there any other better suggestions though?

I'd like to get started with the "latest version" or most recent "better" SID, is there anything I should be looking at other than the obvious latest version that's posted on the MIDIbox site?

Considering the previous question, should I order the PIC chip bootstrapped by MashTV?

Multiple SID's

Considering that the SID's already fat-sounding, are 2, 3, or 4 sid setups overkill?  What are the advantages/disadvantages and do you think the extra work will be worth it to me (considering that I will be using the SID to add on to my own music?)

Gurus are allowed to laugh at me, but please give me some advice.

Thanks!

[Wilba]

If you're planning to scavenge a SID, you will probably have better luck finding an 8580 with a working filter, nearly all the 6581s I scavenged had dead filters and sometimes dead oscillators and sometimes just completely dead. But that's just my experience, others have had better success than me. 8580s are found in the newer C64C, the beige ones, although once I did find a 6581 in a beige one. Whatever you get, the case and PSU are useful, the PSU can be used to give you the 5v and 9v/12v required (see "Step C" page).

If you're totally new to this, I'd suggest starting small, just get one SID going, without control surface, then evaluate whether you want to spend more time and money building a multi-SID box and/or control surface. Once you have more than one SID, a control surface becomes almost essential so you can assign the MIDI channels and patches to each SID. Definitely start out with SmashTV's modules (pre-programmed PIC) and follow the guides, especially voltage tests before you plug in chips or a display, and the Core-SID interconnection tests. It pays to make sure the SID should be making a sound before you plug it in... I do another undocumented test of the audio buffer, hook the output up to an amp and short the SID's output pin with ground without the SID plugged in!!! Also, you should get a 24LC256 from SmashTV to store your patches, an MB-SID without patch storage is (literally) a complete waste of time!

SID preferences vary, and while I am obviously biased by suggesting the 8580  ;D  it would seem to suit you better IMHO, especially the filter. Listen to the demo:

http://www.midibox.org/midibox_sid/mbsid_v1_5_filter.mp3

First you hear 6581, then 8580, then 6581, then 8580. The second and fourth sounds are exactly how my SID sounds. Also, for the 303 bassline feature, an 8580 is recommended.

[narf]

god, that sounds good...  I actually do like the 8580 better... it sounds cleaner but fuller, which is actually good.  I like dirty, but if it sounds thin and dirty that's kinda like approaching an emulation kind of sound, which is what I don't want.

I've never used a C64.  Is there a way I can test the C64's SID before taking it out (I.e. within the OS)?  That will save me the hassle of opening it up and getting it connected etc...

Are there any more a/b tests out there? I want to hear some more a/b's with drums and other souds. This is a good one though.

Thanks Wilba!

[Wilba]

I'd have to say the filter is the major difference between the two kinds of SID, if you like filters, get the 8580. The 6581 has a reputation for being very noisy (not dirty, this is overall background noise!) and a few other audible "quirks" which others appreciate. Unfiltered, and taking noise out of the equation, they sound pretty much the same, and I assume that applies to drum sounds too.

Testing the SID inside a C64 falls outside my knowledge...  As a quick test you can just plug in a game cartridge and listen to the intro... Learning how to poke the right bits into the SID registers to make sound is a bit time-consuming.

I'd suggest buy the C64 for the case and PSU, and if the SID works, that's a bonus  :)