Cheap, but robust audio pc build?

[mikeb]

I'm thinking of building a second computer to use for solely for audio work. This was the plan with my current pc but my internet connection made it otherwise. :) I started downloading demos of this and that, and well you know how that goes. Soooo, I've been thinking of utilizing my old pc's case (compaq), I actually really like the case, and change out everything and build it up with a very stripped down version of XP. I'm thinking of some sort of P4 processor, I think those run under 90 bucks now, (I'm open to AMD cpu's as well) and a micro atx mobo to start, max out the ram, etc. And probably get a lot of this off Ebay. Any of you done anything like this? Suggestions?

As it stands now, the internet distracts me from concentrating on audio work. :P

[pay_c]

Yeah, I kind of did the same, but I built a whole new computer for that. So I´ll just let you know what I think is good for audio comps:

First: cheap *&* audio = nope

Audio computers have to run stable on a pretty high level of performance, so do forget the *cheap* ;)

Use only high-quality ram (Infineon or even better Kingston) so you don´t have to restart your computer in the middle of your best song (telling that out of experience: Some computer crashing in the middle of a song can drive you F**** CRAZY!!!). The same counts for the motherboard, get some ASUS or similar (NOT in any case NONAME!!!). I think Intel has the most suitable processors for audio stuff but that experience lies some years ago so things could have changed in the meantime. At least I know AMD more gets out everything from the processor, so they are also more likely to crash. And some software will run unstable of AMD processors. I would stick to Intel (but I don´t wanna make a commercial for them, you know).

The rest is pretty straight ahead: Get a good audio card (there have been several discussions about that on the forum - search for those for more infos on that BIG topic) and a MIDI interface (most USB-interfaces work very well today - you also can build your own ;) ).

AND: If somehow possible (budget!) make your PC AS SILENT AS POSSIBLE!!! Meaning: Fan-less PSU, isolated case (or isolate the case), hard-drive also in some isolated suspension, silent CPU-cooler. That pays out like high-time, believe me.

Ok, that´s all, greetz! :)

[kris]

    hello

      just to say i run an amd athlon xp 2200 with 1 gb of ram for audio i find this quite adequate and something like this can be put together reasonably cheap. this system will record 8 tracks of audio live with out glitching and also run some effects. It seems a good sized lump of reliable ram is more important than processor speed. of course a good audio card is important. hope this helps

                                                            kris

[henrygr]

A computer solely for Audio work is a "must"....and don't connect it to the internet- ever.

That is my experience. The only time I connect it is for XP updates, which is not that often, as I have no security issues. I f i need to download an app or sample, I do so on another PC and network it accross- another tip- never leave a network connection open when working with audio- can cause clicks and pops- fine if you are reworking rice krispies commercials, but otherwise a no no.

"A cheap audio pc" ia a bit of an oxymoron. Like "an honest music agent". As a genral rule of thumb though, if the hardware is built for gaming, then it will be ideal for music. I use an nVidia mobo- it even comes with its own ASIO driver for the built in soundcard, although I don't use it as it is onlt 16 bit. Make sure you have tons of good ram, a solid audio card, and a good graphics card to take the weight of its own graphic processing- mine supports dual monitors which is excellent for all those windows in audio apps. Don't forget a KVM switch and network cables!! I built mine into a 2 unit hard case as I travel quite a bit with it (I use VSTi's live) so it is quite durable. Case cost €50 in Maplin.

Would post an image for you, but alas, I don't know how.

Good luck with the progect.

[SLP]

you don't have to buy a complete new PC.

Just do it like i did  ;D :

Get yourself a second HDD (NO HITACHI!!! all my stuff was gone one month ago because of a headcrash!!)

and such a HDD-Rack. so you can use one HDD for your music-stuff and the other for internet. The only bad this is that the HDD-fans of those racks are usually f*ckin' loud. but i works fine now.

(XP, P4 3GHz, 1Gb RAM, E-MU 0404)

another question: does anybody have any experience with linux and audio-stuff (drivers, software, compatibility, etc.) ?

matthias

[DavidBanner]

all HDD used for audio should be 7200 rpm or higher - really really don't recommend using 2nd hand ones. Every compontent has a shelf life, and given the massive impact of a dead HD and how cheap they are  - buy new. but ALWAYS ALWAYS ALWAYS backup onto an external HD!! I've seen so many ppl have to learn the hard way (myself included)...

but having 2 internal HDDs isn't going to solve the problems with XP and using the machine for anything other than audio. XP has a lot of stuff running that you don't need if you are just doing music.

my advice - build a dual boot machine - 1 profile for audio, 1 for anything else you need

also when selecting a motherboard pay particular attention to the FSB and memory speeds, these will be one of the main bottlenecks. Asus and Intel make good MBs, I don't think Nvidia make motherboards, just the GPUs for MBs.

low latency ram is your friend as is a good quality PSU

[ultra]

my opinion is that rather than build a cheap audio pc, put some money into it and get exactly what you want.  shortages in pc power will only drive you insane.  money on decent parts is much better spent, and could save you in the long run.

to save money, try an m-audio 2496 sound card if they're still available.  i remember them being under $100 on newegg.com and it's a very good sound card for the price.  with the right pc components, you can easily get under 10ms latency.

dual core processors have come down quite a bit in price, and i think you will see a lot of audio applications taking advantage of it.  ableton live 6 already supports dual core and people using it have seen a large reduction in processor usage.  even the cheapest dual core will get you great performance.  my desktop machine has an amd 3800+ dual core and i'm very happy with it.  my laptop has a newer intel core duo 2 at roughly the same speed, and i get similar performance out of it (difficult to gauge because of other configuration variables).

memory is also very important.  you can get two gigs of good memory for under $200.  the more memory the better.

also fast drives are good.  i install programs to a 160 gb, 3gb/s seagate drive and programs open very fast.  i record to a 320 gb, 3gb/s seagate drive.  both run very quiet and can be bought for under $300 total.

last but not least, newegg.com is a great place to piece together a machine.  their prices are almost always lowest.  if you search around, certain items will be cheaper, but generally you get free shipping with newegg.  more importantly, i can't emphasize how good their customer service is and i have peace of mind every time i order from them.

if you still insist on going cheaper and have some performance problems in windows xp, try switching to windows 2000.  it runs just as stable as xp, is built on the same technology, but it's very much lighter on the system.  just be sure to check your software for compatibility.

[DavidBanner]

if you still insist on going cheaper and have some performance problems in windows xp, try switching to windows 2000.  it runs just as stable as xp,

but no dual processor or 64 bit support!

[SLP]

but having 2 internal HDDs isn't going to solve the problems with XP and using the machine for anything other than audio. XP has a lot of stuff running that you don't need if you are just doing music.

my advice - build a dual boot machine - 1 profile for audio, 1 for anything else you need

I don't use 2 internal HDDs. Theres only 1 HDD in my PC but I can excange it with an second one. It's quite the same as a dual boot PC.

So,.. what do you think of a Linux based audio-PC and those XP-tuning programs?

... and, does Vista make sense when using a single core 32-bit processor?

matthias

[ultra]

as of right now, i haven't found a reason that vista makes sense at all.  xp runs very stable and a 64 bit version is available.  i didn't upgrade to 64 bit anyway because it doesn't support things like context menus in 32 bit software.  as far as i can tell, vista is just a system hog.

[Artesia]

well.. theres a coincidence...

Just when i was researching bulletproof VST hosting solutions, i happened across this thread too :)

The following solution is probably inappropriate / too expensive for what you want... tho thought id meantion it anyways... see this post:

http://www.midibox.org/forum/index.php?topic=8122.0

Its a 2U rack specialised audio computer that does nothing but host & run VST plugins... and apparently its actually reliable with more than decent latency. The basic model sells at £999 and the deluxe one £1500 odd.

Not for everyone ...tho i thought it was a damn good idea.

(...i am getting sooo sick of vst plugins failing to run reliabily under windows :/ )

[mikeb]

I tend to believe the worse thing you can do when concentrating on audio is bloat your system with other non-audio related junk, which is what I did with my system. But yeah, you guys have brought up a lot a interesting points. I should clarify, when I say cheap I don't mean off brand type stuff. I certainly wouldn't get an old used harddrive. But rather I look at it like this,  I'm sure there are many components (consider them overlooked) that you can now get pretty cheaply on ebay and newegg that'll give you a hell of a bang for your buck since everyone is getting the latest and greatest dual cores. And since single core chips have gone wayyyy down in price that single core system that was once considered awesome is incredibly affordable. I had a five year spread between pc purchases and when I started looking again I pretty much narrowed in on the 939 socket and I blinded myself to everything else. So, I'm wondering what Intel and AMD socket types to look out for?

Actually, I have a question about something DavidBanner brought concerning building a dual boot machine...something I'd never even considered. I don't know the first thing about this sort of thing but it does sound kinda sweet - 1 profile for audio, 1 for anything else you need! My current system is a dual core AMD 3800+ so is it possible for me to get a 2nd drive and do all my audio work there? What does configuring a setup like this call for?

Artesia, I saw that system a while back. Very cool stuff. There's also a system that allows you to network vst's that I've since lost the link to...I'll try to search for it.

[DavidBanner]

My current system is a dual core AMD 3800+ so is it possible for me to get a 2nd drive and do all my audio work there? What does configuring a setup like this call for?

You don't even need the 2nd drive to do the dual boot.

The 2nd drive is a good idea when u store all your songs/audio there and keep all the applications other HD.

Setting up a dual boot is quite easy, whack the XP disk in, install windows again - but choose the option to do a new install, rather than repair.

I've even seen ppl on the net doing a PC (i.e. not an Apple machine) that runs XP and OSX!

I take it you are not in the UK? If you are I can recommend a great place to get your stuff...

[Artesia]

mikeb ...well this system does connect via network cable ..behaves like the daddy of all sound modules that you throw vsts in ...its possible that theres something else out there that does this too ..as i remember reading about a rackmount vst host in a mag afew years back, which im fairly sure wasnt a muse box ..looked at the specs and wasnt majorly impresssed at the time.

[Therezin]

If you're after reliability, remember to make sure you're PCs power supply is up to the job too - audio can be very processor-intensive, so get the most powerful PSU you can afford, as a PC that pulls more than the PSU can handle will have no end of hangups and resets. Vast quantities of RAM and a large, fast hard disk are also a pre-requisite. I've got 1280MB of RAM and a 200gig SATA150 hard disk that do the job nicely, tho the 200gig's running out quickly. When I built the PC they cost me a hell of a lot, but now you should be able to pick up the same stuff as i'm running for about £100 if you shop around.

[henrygr]

Dual Boot System. Google the terms in CAPS for meaning and instructions

-PARTITION the hard drive. You do not necessarily need two actual HDDs, and it is always a good idea to partition anyway to smaller sizes anyway. Reduces your PAGE FILE size, and gives for a more manageable and faster PC. On my own PC, I have my system on one partition, applications on another, samples on another, current projects on another.... you get the picture

-Load up XP from the boot CD. It has an option in the boot menu to install XP onto whatever partitions you want. Choose any partition other than your current operating system, preferably as close as posible to the beginning of the physical hard drive (adjacent your current system insatallation would be best)

-Google XP DAW OPTIMISATION (DAW=Digital Audio Workstation) to get the best results for recording on your new installation. ;D ;D

-Build an MBOX to realise full pleasure of your music making ;D ;D ;D ;D ;D

Just a note. When you have the dual boot set up, windows will ask you, just after you power up, which system (your current or your audio) you want to run. Couldn't be easier.

Just another note- set up your audio system on the freshly installed OS partition.

Will take you about a day your first time doing this. I personally use Partition Magic, but there are lots of apps out there,

Happy Splitting,

MP

[ultra]

speaking of power supplies, would anybody have any idea how to test one?  my pc has been randomly shutting down since the day it was built.  it'll do it in or out of windows, but it seems to shut off more when i'm doing something processor intensive.  i've tried various things and have determined it's not heat, the hard drive, memory, or the video card.  i really don't want to replace the motherboard (asus a8n-sli premium) or the cpu (amd 3800+ dual core).  the power supply is a nice (500 watt i think) antec.  the one where you can use only the cords and plugs you need.  it hadn't occurred to me that it could possibly be the power supply.  so without replacing it, is there a way to test this out?

[cimo]

SLP

if you want to use linux google planet ccrma, i tried 3 audio linux versions and ccrma gave me an easy install of packages, a stable system and a proper support.Drivers? that depends on your soundcards but right now drivers for most common cards are provided also for some USBs.

good luck

[stryd_one]

I'm gonna be a little different and answer your question with another question:

What do you plan on doing with it?

A DAW wears a lot of different hats these days, and obviously doing it on the cheap means making compromises. What you need to do is maximise your return on investment, by investing the lion's share of your limited funds in areas where you require higher performance, and compromise in areas which don't matter so much.

For example if you're doing sample playback, you'd be better off with a fast drive and/or more RAM (depending on whether your sampler streams direct from disk) than spending big bux on the CPU... But for a live PA synthesis box, you want CPU grunt and RAM, but the drive is not so important... That's a very simplified example of course, the more specific you can be about what you need from the box, the more specific the performance tweaks can be.

So I'll wait for more details about what exactly the box will do before I answer with a real answer :)

[Artesia]

well, big reasonably fast hard drives & memory are peanuts these days ..so you can spec up on those regardless ...processors aare still where it costs a segnificant whack if you are aiming to get as much power into the one box as you can.

so biggest thing to be comprimising on, is the processor in my view.

[stryd_one]

Sorry I don't agree. The difference between a UDMA, SATA2, SCSI320 and FC drive, over 7200, 10K and 15KRPM, is huge. Also you have to factor in the cost of the motherboard and any additional hardware to drive it all...

Memory isn't quite so subject to that, but for eg, if you're using lots of samples and using an app that is able to stream direct from disk, you'd possibly gain greater benefit from spending the money otherwise spent on 512MB of RAM, on upgrading to the next higher speed of drive...

[Artesia]

well ..you can also trade off the amount of space a drive has, against the speed + interface type :) ..which is the way i'd be weighing it up ..i mean surely accounted for, even with some huge sample librarys installed.. what does it take to burn finished projects onto cd/dvd when you are done ;) :)

tho yeah, it does at the end of the day depend on how you want to use the machine; as to where prioritys sit.

[cimo]

sorry for the off topic but #ARTESIA# i had a quick look at your website and ended up reading the article about supposed new technologies for hifi... just a few days ago i was telling to my house mate that his creativelabs 8.1 sound system sucks although the bux he put on it, it s a nice system to watch an horror movie but i don t even like horror movies and i can t understand how creative can sell this stuff as a modern studio recording system.. fortunately next week i will get my B&O BeoVox S45 a couple of nice speakers that i ve found in the trash in denmark.If my opinion didn t  change my house mate s mind those speakeers will do for sure.

simone

[Artesia]

that was written some time ago in rant mode ...ill have to read it again to put in context what you just said ...running out of time this evening ..as i have to drop in and see some friends ...back later tonight to take stock of what you just said..

On that slightly off topic matter, i currently use a ressurrected Leak Stereo 20 valve amp for front channel & home build for rear (in a 4.1 surround config), 4 external dacs attached to an on SBLive soundcard running asio & doing surround matrix decoding. The top speakers for front and back are modifyed 70's Leak 2030 & 600's with the aluminum cone sandwiches & new crossovers without the horrible electrlytics in em'.. the sandwich tech ended up in alot of studio monitors over the years ...sounds pretty crisp ;)

Oh and the 4x 18" (fane 18xbs) in push pull config are serving as subs when not used for pa ...but that might just be boasting ;)

all in all it does the job nicely for now..

Sorry for carrying on the off topic !

[stryd_one]

well ..you can also trade off the amount of space a drive has, against the speed + interface type :) ..which is the way i'd be weighing it up ..i mean surely accounted for, even with some huge sample librarys installed.. what does it take to burn finished projects onto cd/dvd when you are done ;) :)

tho yeah, it does at the end of the day depend on how you want to use the machine; as to where prioritys sit.

Exactly, now you're feelin me :)