ulisse Posted December 13, 2005 Report Share Posted December 13, 2005 Hi i'm looking if someone has a solution for this MIDI converter for use with the Yamaha BC3A Breath Controller ??? http://www.midisolutions.com/prodbth.htmI'd like to build one and to get for a cheap 20 euros and not ten times that price a commercial one.So if anyone can help me with some idea - or some already built project well be grately appriciated. ;D ;D ;D ;DFor what i'm looking in this site must a simple matter do do a similar job ( for who is an expert like you.... ;) )Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moebius Posted December 15, 2005 Report Share Posted December 15, 2005 I'd like to build one and to get for a cheap 20 euros and not ten times that price a commercial one.It's possible - maybe not for 20€, but close.So if anyone can help me with some idea - or some already built project well be grately appriciated. ;D ;D ;D ;DHere's what I found with little Googlin': http://www.tfe.umu.se/personliga/jh/simple.htmIt can be interfaced to MB64 pretty easily, but you'll need a buffer circuit for it. tech blaa blaa: Top part of the schematic shows a buffer to drive M5283P VCA. It's been voltage limited with 5.6V zener so it's pretty close to what Midibox analog inputs want. Simply changing that to 5.1V zener and using 1M trimmer for R19 would probably do the trick. And you'll need a bipolar supply for this.Bye, Moebius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ulisse Posted December 16, 2005 Author Report Share Posted December 16, 2005 thanks for suggestions.i think i can power up the circuit with single tension +/- .Also i understand that i can use the circuit after c6 sending signal to mbox right ?? 8)the bc input is that : 1= signal 2=+15 v 3=ground it's correct ?? ???thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moebius Posted December 16, 2005 Report Share Posted December 16, 2005 Remember, I don't know a thing about these breath controlllers...In the page I posted, it shows the breath controller having -8VDC for the voltage input. (Tip)Also i understand that i can use the circuit after c6 sending signal to mbox right ?? 8)With mods suggested, I think so. the bc input is that :  1= signal 2=+15 v 3=ground At least here it has a negative input voltage. Or Tip (2) -8VDC, Ring (1) Signal, Sleeve (3) Ground.I think You'll anyway need a bipolar supply for OPAMPs to (full) scale it's output correctly for 0-5V inputs MB64 wants.Moebiusp.s. You COULD power it with a single AC wallwart and halfwave rectifying for +/- voltages. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gabz Posted March 29, 2006 Report Share Posted March 29, 2006 hello, I also want to Midify the BC3 (I'm already constructing my own midibox ...)Why do we have to use this circuit ??? the BC3 already Gives a tension that can be reguled with an offset and gain ... I know this schematic, it's one of Johan Haake who made his own breath controller with joysticks (breath on the axis) for meshuggahBut I don't think we need this circuit for the BC3 ?BUT !! The thing I would Be VERY VERY VERY glad to know, is the Pinning of the BC3 ... I couldn't find It anywhere At least here it has a negative input voltage. Or Tip (2) -8VDC, Ring (1) Signal, Sleeve (3) Ground.I think You'll anyway need a bipolar supply for OPAMPs to (full) scale it's output correctly for 0-5V inputs MB64 wants.I should try it on my BC3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stryd_one Posted March 30, 2006 Report Share Posted March 30, 2006 The pinning will be in it's service manual. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gabz Posted March 30, 2006 Report Share Posted March 30, 2006 what do you call "service manual" ??I buyed it new ...Thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stryd_one Posted March 31, 2006 Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 oh my gosh is Google.com down today or something? ;)A service manual is a document used by a service technician when they need to repair an item. They have things like schematics and pinouts and stuff. It's like a datasheet for a whole device. You will probably have to ask Yamaha for one.Edit: The reason I say ask Yamaha is that I googled for it and didn't find any available online :( You might have better luck than I! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gabz Posted March 31, 2006 Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 I already Tried to ask yamaha but i didnt find a satisfying adress ... I'll search again but I fear they are hiding their adress ...thanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stryd_one Posted March 31, 2006 Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 :( I'll look around some sites I have bookmarked for you. Does it come by any other name, or with any other items as an accessory? What does it normally connect to? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moebius Posted March 31, 2006 Report Share Posted March 31, 2006 Not sure about the innards, but at least the pinout is the same with Yamaha BC2. These are "general" Yamaha breath controllers, probably plugging to many generations of gear from the DX7 to VL series or so.M Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stryd_one Posted April 1, 2006 Report Share Posted April 1, 2006 OK done some homework on this now...Firstly, I can now see that the connector is a 3-way jack, one of those connections will be for power, and the other two for the signal and ground, so it shouldn't be so hard to power up the device and get a multimeter onto those pins and get measuring. The power pins will be obvious, so you can begin to test the remaining pin against the ground pin. The multimeter will almost surely hold your answer... But what to test for? According to this PDF, "A capacitor plate moving in relation to a fixed plate thus change the overall capacitance as used on Akai EVI/EWI 1000 wind synthesizer and the Yamaha BC1 breath controller." So maybe capacitance? Perhaps this capacitance is internally converted to a voltage, or some other measurable change to the current.I wonder if you've asked the guys at MIDI Solutions (from your link) about this? I doubt that they would be willing to share the information, but you can always ask... And then if they won't tell you, then they're obviously too busy making money to be helpful, so you can 'rub it in' later on when you release a DIY version of their product ;)If you are better with hardware than I, you might be able to make some sense of this schematic which takes a BC3 input: http://www.tfe.umu.se/personliga/jh/simple.htm - the readme also mentions this email address for help: johan.haake@tfe.umu.seI found a lot of useless information at http://www.patchmanmusic.com/ and http://windsynth.org/, you might be able to email them for more info...I've also joined the Yahoo Group at http://launch.groups.yahoo.com/group/windcontroller/ and once my membership is approved, I will ask in the mailing list. I'm sure someone there will be able to help out, but of course there are lots of people making money from these kind of devices, so they will probably try to do their best to stop us from gaining this info. Cross your fingers!Seeing as you haven't had any luck with Yamaha yet, it might pay to contact them again, perhaps by a different method this time. Telephone almost always gets a preferable response, as customer service departments find it easier to be flippant in emails.Let me know how you go.... I'll keep you posted on the Yahoo Group. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gabz Posted April 3, 2006 Report Share Posted April 3, 2006 hello stryd_oneYou, you are exited ;)So, Normaly if what my friend told me is true, the BC3 uses a variable temperature resistor which is cooled by the breath..So, it's all like a passive potentiometer (maybe there's some amplifier part as ther is a button nammed "offset" and one named "gain") It's just a variable output tension ...I tried to mesure it ... With 0-5V But it found nothingWith 12V nothing moreI didnt tried a long time because I fear to break the composants with bad reverse tensions ...I MUST get the Pinnout ...thanks , really for all your participation, I hope it will be usefull for you and other peopleTomorrow I call Yamaha franceThanks Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stryd_one Posted April 3, 2006 Report Share Posted April 3, 2006 I'm not that excited really, I don't have much use for a breath controller, just trying to be helpful :)Did you test for reistance and capacitance and voltage? Obviously you'd have to power the thing up first, seeing as the innards may not work without being powered, you might have to open the case so that you can get at the connectors while it's all plugged in and working... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moebius Posted April 3, 2006 Report Share Posted April 3, 2006 Why - Oh Why, people want "Keep pushing against the flow"?I MUST get the Pinnout ...IF you simply don't know the innards of the thing and there's already a working schematic that spits out nearly the voltages needed for AIN..*sigh*MoebiusP.S. By the way, the schematic shows BC being fed with Negative voltage to power - Yours might already be in Breath Controller Heaven ;D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stryd_one Posted April 3, 2006 Report Share Posted April 3, 2006 I agree it seems that a module could be made to plug the BC into an AIN module, using the top part of the 1st schematic... Gabz, do you understand that schematic? I have a very basic understanding, but not so full as I would like it to be... More study required from me.I have just posted to the yahoo group, hopefully the moderator will approve my message for posting (yes, they moderate every single post!) and we'll get some info soon. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gabz Posted April 3, 2006 Report Share Posted April 3, 2006 Sorry I'm Not very good at english, I didn't understand all you could say to meWhy - Oh Why, people want "Keep pushing against the flow"????IF you simply don't know the innards of the thing and there's already a working schematic that spits out nearly the voltages needed for AIN..I tried to make you understand in an earlier post : How do you know that this schematic is made for the Yamaha BC3 controller ? it is NOT made for it ... This schematic is made by MrJ Haake (the brother of drummer of meshuggah ...) for F.thordendhal (guitarist of meshuggah) , and the whole thing is designed for the home made breath controller of J Haake, made out of Joysticks ...If you're sure that it is NECESSARY to get such circuit after the BC3, I 'll Made it, but it's a lot of work and I 'm nearly sure that we can plug the BC3 directly into the AIN module ...P.S. By the way, the schematic shows BC being fed with Negative voltage to power - Yours might already be in Breath Controller Heaven GrinSo you understand Why I fear to test all this without getting the pinnout ?I didnt succes to telephone to yamaha today ... Tommorrow will be the day I hopestryd_one : I don't really understand the schematics, I see some integrator amplified montage with a low pass filter , but I don't know what's the fonction of the U5, nor whats CV1 and CV2 in the M5283And what the "IN1" and "IN2" ??Thanks for all Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stryd_one Posted April 4, 2006 Report Share Posted April 4, 2006 I tried to make you understand in an earlier post : How do you know that this schematic is made for the Yamaha BC3 controller ? it is NOT made for it ... This schematic is made by MrJ Haake (the brother of drummer of meshuggah ...) for F.thordendhal (guitarist of meshuggah) , and the whole thing is designed for the home made breath controller of J Haake, made out of Joysticks ...BZZZZZT wrong! Sorry you do NOT win the car! ;)From the page which links to that schematic:There is also a simple controller that only controls volume that I have aschematic for. It works with a Yamaha BC2-3 (possibly the BC1).I made this schematic for the ones that wanted a simple controller to build themself, but I've never tested it! Check it outI think you confused this schematic with one of the other devices on his site :)If you're sure that it is NECESSARY to get such circuit after the BC3, I 'll Made it, but it's a lot of work and I 'm nearly sure that we can plug the BC3 directly into the AIN module ...<SNIP>So you understand Why I fear to test all this without getting the pinnout ?Absolutely. Patience is the key. We'll ge the info we need... But I'm not so sure that the BC outputs standard CV by itself, or all that circuitry would be unnecessaryI didnt succes to telephone to yamaha today ... Tommorrow will be the day I hopestryd_one : I don't really understand the schematics, I see some integrator amplified montage with a low pass filter , but I don't know what's the fonction of the U5, nor whats CV1 and CV2 in the M5283And what the "IN1" and "IN2" ??Thanks for allYeh, keep waiting until we hear from the yahoo group or yamaha or something.IN1 and IN2 are the audio inputs for this device. What the schematic shows is an interface for the BC* (which is the top part of schematic 1, everything between 'BC In' and 'CV1' and 'CV2') and that interface controls the amplitude of a stereo signal which is input through IN1 and IN2 and output via OUT1 and OUT2. Schematic 2 below it is the power supply. CV1 and CV2 are the Control Voltages from the BC interface part of the citrcuit, to the IC which does the audio parts. We can pretty much ignore all that. If you just use the top part of the schematic, that will output CV. U4 and U5 are some kind of op-amp, but I don't know much more than that.... Like I said, we need to do more study so that we can understand the schamatic. Hope that helps. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gabz Posted April 4, 2006 Report Share Posted April 4, 2006 the guy from midi solution confirm me that the BC3 gives a voltage as a function of the breath ...So, It surely can go in an AIN module ... Must just know the pinnout and tension supplyI couldn't get yamaha today, tomorrow morning, I swear !!!I don't really understand what does the upper part of the schematic, if the BC3 gives a voltage, why does J.Haake modify it ? It's surely because he works directly with audio, in our case, I don't think it's usefullthanks for the help Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stryd_one Posted April 4, 2006 Report Share Posted April 4, 2006 Well, you haven't got enough info yet. We now know that it puts out a voltage, but we don't know what voltage it is, and we don't know how it varies.... It might put out a range from -12V to -8V for all we know, and that's not useful for going direct to AIN. We also don't know what scale is used for the change, is it linear? logarithmic? etc etc etc... We need to ask way more questions :) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gabz Posted April 5, 2006 Report Share Posted April 5, 2006 http://members.aol.com/whitfiel/bc.htm!!!Big thanks to the guy of midisolutions who gave me the link .. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stryd_one Posted April 5, 2006 Report Share Posted April 5, 2006 Props to him. I think if we get this working we should put some kind of credit to him in the source code.Edit: No, really, that was so damn nice of him. I honestly thought that he would be the LAST person to help, seeing as he has a commercial device for the same purpose.. Shows what I know!! *slaps himself* Seems not everyone in business is a money hungry b*stard after all. What a legend. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gabz Posted April 5, 2006 Report Share Posted April 5, 2006 I called Yamaha Today : They don't want to give me the pinnout because they fear copy etc .. blablabla ...Hopefully John from midisolutions gave me the link before ;)I'm going to test all this tonight or in the week ...thanks !! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stryd_one Posted April 6, 2006 Report Share Posted April 6, 2006 What a bunch of crap Yamaha are talking. If that were the case, then nobody would be able to build a synthesizer that would work with a BC3a, and then you would only be able to use a Yamaha keyboard with a yamaha controller. If that is true, then Akai will be pleased, because they'll be making more sales.I suspect you got some clueless person on the phone, but it doesn't matter. Everything you need is linked in this thread.Hint: Listen to Moebius. Use that schematic above. Use the PSU in the other thread from NorthernLightX to power it. Done. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gabz Posted May 18, 2006 Report Share Posted May 18, 2006 Hello ALL !Replying to this old thread !I used the stabilisated alimentation at work to test the BC3AND IT WORKS !So definitively : -12V on the TIP +5 on the Sleeve Various voltage on the ringThe BC3 is REALLY reactive, It goes very fast to saturation : -10V The more you breath, the more you go to -10VHope this will help other persons, I'm making a little mountage with Amplifier to make the tension output from 0V to 5V ... I'll post the schematic if i ve got the timeI hope it will work on the midi box ... this thing is simply Fabulous ...I'm thinking for the alimentation ... Now I need +15V , -12V , and obviously +5V that I already have ... The most difficult will be the -12V ... I'll also post the schematicThanks all, thanks UCAPPS ! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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