rambinator Posted May 30, 2007 Report Share Posted May 30, 2007 Hi there!When I made the artwork for my midibox LC I measured the position of the fader when it is set to 0db in Ableton Live. I used this point to align the scales on the artwork. Now I realised that the faders reach a different position when set to 0db in Sonar. Is this normal?Is it the same for real mackie owners? The printed scales would be quite useless then.cheers,rambinator Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasha Posted May 30, 2007 Report Share Posted May 30, 2007 Man, that sucks! >:( This is what I wanted to do, but if 0db it`s not at it`s place in all apps it is quite useless. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rambinator Posted June 1, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 1, 2007 can anyone confirm this?seems that i cant find anything about this issue with original mackie control Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK. Posted June 2, 2007 Report Share Posted June 2, 2007 Which faders are you using?The same issue exists for Mackie Control, but the reason is not the software, but the quality of the P&G motorfaders. The root cause is propably, that the resistance is not 100% linear over the travel.Addendum: ok, seems that you mean another issue - that the host software sets the motorfader to different positions for 0dB. I'm not aware of such an issue, but I'm a logic user ;)Best Regards, Thorsten. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rambinator Posted June 3, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 3, 2007 Addendum: ok, seems that you mean another issue - that the host software sets the motorfader to different positions for 0dB. exactly Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
rambinator Posted June 14, 2007 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2007 Bad News!I tried 4 different daws resulting in 4 different positions. I have a photo but currently i cant download from my mobile.It looks somehow like this:|||< Ableton live (it is sending pitchbend 108)||< Sonar|< Cubase||< Reaper|||That is ugly and i cant understand how genuine mcu owners can live with that. What I am planing to do is to set the scale to sonar requirements (which i am using most of the time) and have a small line on the oposite side indicating 0db in Live (which only has one linein the guy, too)btw: can somebody explain how to use midi-ox to monitor what the mbox-lc is doing? i am using the serial connection with the yamaha cbx-driver. In live I can just make it monitor the input. In sonar it wouldnt work with the input as it says "driver allready in use" and it wont show anything on the output... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasha Posted June 14, 2007 Report Share Posted June 14, 2007 I tried 4 different daws resulting in 4 different positions.This is really unbelievable! Seams, linear is not linear to everybody. ???It really makes no sense to mark 0dB for each software. 0dB is absolute value, and should be at same pot`s physical position no matter of DAW, if you ask me. Is that something that is ignored or it is some kind of bug? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
seppoman Posted June 14, 2007 Report Share Posted June 14, 2007 This is really unbelievable! Seams, linear is not linear to everybody. ???It really makes no sense to mark 0dB for each software. 0dB is absolute value, and should be at same pot`s physical position no matter of DAW, if you ask me. Is that something that is ignored or it is some kind of bug?Actually, dB is neither a linear nor an absolute unit ;) And the translation of the fader movement to actual dB scale is not linear even on analog consoles. People seem to feel that it is more important to be able to adjust levels precisely in the +10 to -10 dB range than between -60 and -80dB. There´s also different max. values on different consoles (and DAWs), so even if the progression of the scale follows a rule, the 0dB mark can´t be at the same spot for programs using +6dB and +12dB as a max. amplification.Of course this is kind of annoying for HUI usage, so it would be a wise idea for the audio software industry to find some common standard for this...Seppoman Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasha Posted June 14, 2007 Report Share Posted June 14, 2007 0dB mark can´t be at the same spot for programs using +6dB and +12dB as a max. amplification.Ofcourse, but it should be same for all programs using same scale. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
audioworld Posted June 14, 2007 Report Share Posted June 14, 2007 If I may contribute something from a sound engineers perspective:0dB has no meaning by itself, it just states "no amplification and no damping", one always has to reference dB to a known fixed value. 0dBU for examples equals to 0,775V effective voltage, 0dBV equals to 1V, 0dBm equals to zero on the loudness scale etc. etc...When we talk about dB in the digital domain we most often talk about dBFS (Full Scale), this is the maximum possible level before nasty digital clipping occurs, and usually, one sets a "virtual" zero dB point within a digital audio console some dB BELOW this 0dBFS. In the radio studios where I work we defined 9dB "headroom", so our "Zero" in the console equals to -9dBFull Scale. Hence, when I have an alignment tone on one track with 0dBFS, I open the fader to the "0dB" mark, I have -9dBFS on the master bus.How much voltage you have on the analog outputs now depends on the console manufacturer. Professional consoles give +4dBU (U.S) or +6dBU (Europe) voltage on the outputs when you see 0dB on the meters, so the maximum level would again be +15dBU (Europe) when you have Full Scale in the console.Additional Complexity: when you are mastering for a CD, you have to define the number of COnsecutive-Full-Scale-Samples which actuall MEAN digital "Over" for you. With classical music this usually 4COns. FSS, for POP we tell the OVER indicator to only lit up when 15 Cons. FSS are measured (to maximize loudness for drums).So please be aware that "0db" on the fader has little to do with "0dB" on the meters. It seems to me that every application defines its own internal headroom against 0dB Full Scale, and this is not documented well. But this also occurs on professional digital consoles, the WRITING on the fader does not really matter, check the gain structure of the console yourself with alignment tones.sorry for the long post,karl. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Sasha Posted June 15, 2007 Report Share Posted June 15, 2007 sorry for the long post,Thank you for the long post. I will probably mark the console with numbers only. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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