Inside the OBERHEIM MATRIX 12 & UK UPS is USELESS ! (photos & chips) UPPED

[Artesia]

and so i ordered a matrix 12; and the sight below greeted me:

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

.

....no, no ..that one silly !

quite a front panel.. a 8 megapixel slr struggled to capture the fine artwork on the front panel for a one shot overview:

panel closeups:

Link To Larger image:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/nausicaa.valley/ucapps/ob_matrix12/M12_003_L.jpg

Link To Larger image:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/nausicaa.valley/ucapps/ob_matrix12/M12_006_L.jpg

rear panel funnily enough ...btw the jack sockets on these things always lack any form of nut on them ..even though they are threaded for it !

aah VFD's ..not enough synths adorned with these things ;)

insides of course..

the immense stack of circuitary for the 12 voices ...they dont pack em out like this anymore ;)

Link To Larger image:

http://homepage.ntlworld.com/nausicaa.valley/ucapps/ob_matrix12/M12_013_L.jpg

on the voice boards:

cem3374 - dual VCO

cem3372 - variable mode/state filter ..mistaken on the web at times for being only low pass !

TL084/82/81cn - the lower cost TL series opamps.. most are probably for just dealing with modulation stuff.

tl074cn - higher performance, low noise TL series opamps ..proabably used on the audio end.

other chips and bits im too lazy to document right now.. have a look for yourself ;)

each of the six voice cards is controlled directly by its own dedicated cpu, in this case Hitachi HD68b09p

The control surface and front end has an entirely sepperate & somewhat more bulky cpu board to string it all togeather ..patch memory and such is on here too. uses battery backup (not thedays of flash ram when this was out ;).

the cpu here is hitachi hd68b09p again.

power supply with an odd improvisation regarding a small step up transformer to provide the VFD dispalys withthe 55v or so they needto work.

Various sections of the top surface boards...weird infinate rotarys knobs based on resistive technology here:

final overview ofthe main cpu board.

some info:

The Oberheim Matrix 12 is essentially 2 Xpanders stuffed into one box with a keyboard attached. its a 12 voice instrument and sported an impressive 15 mode filter & was the first (?) synth to fully implement the powerful matrix modulation system. its amazingly programmable & for the most part easy and intuitive to do so.. and sounds pretty fat :) i particularly like the 3 pole (close to that classic roland filter sound), 1 pole & phase filters this synth has ..they have an interesting timbre without stiking their necks out too far when being abused somewhat :)

The only real niggles are that the keyboard could be abit more responsive & the paddle controls arent great.. then again these things can be changed and tweaked for fairly minimal hassle if depended on.

Also contemplating playing with some ofthe new higher performance TL series compatible opamps to 'improve' the sonic character of  the synth ..tho i may well just leave it be for now.. as its quite enough as it stands :)

btw anyone got the absolute final ROM versions for this synths voice & cpu boards ? ...its a meer one step behind.

If you arent too fussy, you can get pretty close to the capability's and sounds of this synth ..with the matrix 1000 units ..which sell for 1/10th the price typically ...only they lack any controls other than patch recall, dont respond to changing parameters in realtime quickly at all ..and have a distinctly shrill bite to their low pass only filters which although sometimes works in your favour and at others hinders a completely comfortable rendering of certain sounds.

bought this one from tonetweakers.com; they service & sell vintage instruments restored to full working order/calibrations.

Took a chance on ordering from these guys on spotting a matrix 12 ..they were polite, patient & most important the order arrived  as expected, and as described on their part. Go take a look sometime, they sell tons of kit & you might find something you'e been looking for.

Riiight ...whos got a cs80/cs30 they want to part with  ? ;)

UPS ...and the fun we had..:

all went pretty well... however UK UPS managed to really piss me off. But then again, thats not been unusual for them in my area...

friends keep on getting packages arrive severly battered & in one instance a farnell delivery had a whole bunch of serviets shoved in it to hide the fact that its entire contents had bounced around & was 'lost wherever..

USA side UPS seemed to be pretty efficient... the parcel got thru in 25 hours & as you might expect it took afew days to drip thru customs.

then the fun started... the delivery date was quoted on the online tracking as being on the 25th.. the tuesday after the easter break. Overnight in the wee hours they changed their mind & tried to deliver it when i was far from expecting it on friday 20th ..and i missed them..

having not happened to be available upon the first time they decided to randomly visit was the start of the problems...

i phoned up their single national number for the uk to find out about the fact that no customs charges had been noted on the missed delivery form.. they told me there was nothing to pay ..and they didnt seem to be able to provide me with an example of standard procedure where customs is due ..the staff just didnt know this !

the next point of inquiry with them was where was the local sorting office & what where the opening times. i said if i managed to arrange transport and it wasnt too far; id go with a friend to collect before easter landed.. but -NOT- to change the delivery options;i stated that i may not be able to collect in person and therefore not to change any of the delivery details.

...guess what ..turns out tamworth was too far an no one was available ..they canceled my 2 remaining delivery attempts ..defaulting to 5 days hold & return if i didnt appear !

what really rubbed it in, was that only after 4 very cool headed and clearly stated phone calls did the several different staff i spoke to finally get booking it back in for delivery again ..the first one on confirming my reuest for re delivery managed to press a button that just puts it on hold again ...is this computers, people or both ? ...honestly.

i only got it sorted propperly when i managed to get them to forward me to the local sorting depo.. (no public phone nmber for them (unlike royal mail)) ...this was then somewhat reluctantly sorted by them there.

next on this one; the delivery arrives on this thursday, nice enough guy working on their delivery rounds :) ...he hadnt noticed the automated slip that stated the customs duty to collect immediately in person til i mentioned duty fees..

and somehow, despite that info being available on ups systems.. the call center wasnt able to inform me of it ..or to be aware of it ! ..funny considering the customs fees are sorted for them by someone on the uk side they emply to do this ! ..and they didnt inform me of how they dealt with customs ...even though there was that pink slip sitting there, printed by them ..in the uk !

the delivery chap said... yep they are always doing this ...they never tell us ..or the customer about customs charges.

furthermore, the delivery drivers aren't actually insured to collect customs duty for them ..royal mail couldnt get renewed insurance for theirs ...so they canceled cash on collection in preference for people paying over the phone to clear parcels for delivery/ relying on them turning up with cash at the depo in person. ..but at least royal mail have the decency to send out a letter stating the required fee ..rather than demanding a fee out of the blue on your doorstep ..and if something you werent expecting arrives levying customs duty from someone like ups ..theres a fair chance they wont let you know what it is first before forking out...

also not having all the money to hand for the duty meant that the guy had to come back the following day..this friday before we were able to close the deal.. which resulted in a spoofed 'closed for business' thing being left in the system ..making me look even more of a prat in paperwork terms..

.needless to say ...i dont like ups.

tho somethings we have to put up with occasionally ..and if not anywhere else ..the midlands sorting office sucks.

Package Progress

Location Date Local Time Description

TAMWORTH,

GB 03/28/2008 12:31 P.M. DELIVERY

03/28/2008 6:19 A.M. OUT FOR DELIVERY

03/28/2008 6:19 A.M. IMPORT SCAN

TAMWORTH,

GB 03/27/2008 2:48 P.M. THE RECEIVER'S LOCATION WAS CLOSED ON THE 2ND DELIVERY ATTEMPT. A 3RD DELIVERY ATTEMPT WILL BE MADE

03/27/2008 1:04 P.M. DELIVERY

03/27/2008 4:17 A.M. OUT FOR DELIVERY

03/27/2008 4:17 A.M. IMPORT SCAN

TAMWORTH,

GB 03/26/2008 6:25 P.M. DELIVERY RESCHEDULED

TAMWORTH,

GB 03/25/2008 4:58 P.M. THE DELIVERY CHANGE REQUEST FOR THIS PACKAGE WAS MODIFIED / THE PACKAGE IS BEING HELD FOR FUTURE DELIVERY. UPS WILL ATTEMPT DELIVERY ON THE DATE REQUESTED

03/25/2008 8:03 A.M. THE DELIVERY CHANGE REQUEST FOR THIS PACKAGE WAS MODIFIED / AS REQUESTED, THE RECEIVER WILL PICKUP AT A UPS FACILITY AT THEIR CONVENIENCE. THIS MUST BE WITHIN 5 BUSINESS DAYS

TAMWORTH,

GB 03/20/2008 3:15 P.M. A DELIVERY CHANGE REQUEST FOR THIS PACKAGE WILL BE PROCESSED / AS REQUESTED, THE RECEIVER WILL PICKUP AT A UPS FACILITY AT THEIR CONVENIENCE. THIS MUST BE WITHIN 5 BUSINESS DAYS

03/20/2008 1:43 P.M. THE RECEIVER WAS UNAVAILABLE TO SIGN ON THE 1ST DELIVERY ATTEMPT. A 2ND DELIVERY ATTEMPT WILL BE MADE

03/20/2008 6:20 A.M. OUT FOR DELIVERY

03/20/2008 6:19 A.M. IMPORT SCAN

EAST MIDLANDS AIRPOR,

GB 03/20/2008 1:20 A.M. IMPORT SCAN

03/20/2008 12:01 A.M. IMPORT SCAN

EAST MIDLANDS AIRPOR,

GB 03/19/2008 2:49 P.M. REGISTERED WITH CLEARING AGENCY / SHIPMENT SUBMITTED TO CLEARING AGENCY

03/19/2008 2:49 P.M. REGISTERED WITH CLEARING AGENCY / RELEASED BY CLR AGENCY. NOW IN-TRANSIT

EAST MIDLANDS AIRPOR,

GB 03/18/2008 9:55 P.M. ARRIVAL SCAN

**2, US 03/18/2008 11:17 A.M. DEPARTURE SCAN

03/18/2008 10:34 A.M. DEPARTURE SCAN

03/18/2008 2:39 A.M. EXPORT SCAN

03/18/2008 12:50 A.M. ARRIVAL SCAN

**1, US 03/17/2008 9:09 P.M. DEPARTURE SCAN

03/17/2008 8:41 P.M. ORIGIN SCAN

US 03/17/2008 6:41 P.M. BILLING INFORMATION RECEIVED

[Artesia]

new stuff uppped as  above ...had to tear myself away from playing with it long enough to write that ;)

...hope this is of interest to some :)

** Looks around ...hmm no one curious about the Obie ? ;) ...must all be out partying ..well not me tonight it would seem ;) **

[a7thson]

** Looks around ...hmm no one curious about the Obie ? ;) ...

Pardon as I pick up my jaw again  :o Great photos!  I'm somewhat stupified and am sure it's a joy to play with such a beast.  Luckily I've lurked (see post count!) long enough to know that many synths have passed through your hands - is this one a keeper and for personal use?!  Such a classic.

you can get pretty close to the capability's and sounds of this synth ..with the matrix 1000 units

I'd like you to elaborate on your comment about the Matrix 1000, if you could.  I'd assume you would need/want two of them to get the same polyphony?  Or are you saying the 12-voice polyphony isn't necessary to get a similar sound?  Oh, and any tips for making that happen?  ;)

I ask because I've owned one of the older black-faced units for several months but never really liked the available software editors; consequently it has languished since my original hours of fascination with factory patches.  It's sort of stirring to life again, though - two weeks ago I finally broke out the sysex and spent a day setting up a (still very rough and unfinished) template on my X-Station... giving me my first taste of its lagging and jerky real-time control - but also my first sounds of analog VCF transforming as it's moving to self-oscillation!  ;D

[Artesia]

hi,

yes a number have passed this way.. the only ones ive not kept where the access virus ti & nord lead keyboards which i had on loan whilst a shop took for ever and a day to service my alesis andromeda.. frankly they didnt tickle my fancy ..especially considering their asking prices on all digital synths which can relatively easily be walked all over by much cheaper plugins.

i have a real like of vintage & unusual hardware synthesis & ive been building up a little collection for a while; as right now the ones id like to have to hand for projects are still within reach of my pockets & not quite super, super hard to come by just yet.

so i figured id get the acquisition of these things out of the way, whist i could still afford & find them... In anycase, if i loose interest in it all in the future ..it shouldnt be a loss & could turn out to be a good investment on financial grounds ...aside of these bits of kit sounding fantastic in ways software struggles to get close to; they are also fast becoming rare antiquity's ;)

yes, you can use chain mode to get 12 note & greater polyphony out of the m1000 (the expander & m12 also do this)...

tho just how one would play 12 notes with 10 figers ill never know ;) the polyphony is mainly useful for layering up parallel sound elements into a single, bigger sound.

the m1000 can sound like the m12... though its just not a beefy and silky.. its voice structure isnt as complex & it sbased on DCO's ..not VCO's.. also the matrix 1000 ocillators also behave oddly, breaking up into some bizarre grittiness in the low registers.. this doesnt happen on the dcs m12.

you an program quite complex voices for the m6/1000 ..however they dont offer asmany options as the m12/expander (see comparison list) ..also the polyphony isnt so much agout how many notes you can bang out ..as much as having the option to layer voices for a more complex overall tone :) ..and dealing with sustained notes. tho theres no reason you cant cheat in the studio situ by layering many oberheim elements ontop of eachother in your sequencer/recording device ..making it sound like you have a gazillion not  polyphony ;) ...also some complex layers can be achieved that way ..only that you are limited by the number of modulation routings for each take :)

yeah the matrix editors leave alot to be desired ..im thinking of programming my keystation to map it as completely as possible.

yup theres alot of really good factory patches on the m1000, only theres a small risk some of them may well be over used by now ..however who ares depends on what youre audience has been exposed to ;)

matrix 12:

+ 12 voices each consisting of:

* 2 VCOs, VCOs syncable,

* 15 VCA's

* 5 LFOs,

* 5 ENVs,

* 3 Tracking Generators,

* 4 Ramp-Generators (mini envelopes),

* 1 lag processor

* 1 fm mod generator.

*  mod matrix - 27sources, 47 destinations. (20 assignable on each individual voice)

* 6 keyboard layering zones

* Multi-mode filter:

LPF,HPF (1-4 Pol), BPF (2 & 4 Pol), Notch, Phase (3 Pol), and Combinations: HPF (2-3 Pol)+LPF(1 Pol), Notch (2 Pol) + LPF (1 Pol), Phase (3 Pol) + LPF (1 Pol) , Filter FM and Oszillator FM modable

matrix 1000:

+ 6 voices each consisting of:

* 2 DCOs, syncable,

* 2 VCA's

* 2 LFOs,

* 3 ENVs,

* 1 Tracking Generators (?)

* 2 Ramp-Generators (mini envelopes),

*  mod matrix - 20 sources, 32 destinations.

* 2 keyboard layering zones

* 4 pole low pass filter only.

[bill]

omg, you have one... that is my dream synth !

so, where do you live ? ;)

[Artesia]

within Leicestershire county in the the UK :)

[a7thson]

a number have passed this way.. the only ones ive not kept where the access virus ti & nord lead

The Virus-C was my first synth purchase (2006) and really more an impulse buy; luckily for me a good one.  I like the standard filters (the add-on analog 2p,3p,4p sound very weak to me, but the '1-pole' which is great fun) but it seems all the good stuff is buried behind way too many menus.  All the basic VA stuff, oscillator FM, wavetables and extensive modulation capabilities plus onboard FX... it can all be pretty overwhelming if you're just starting out.  No wonder people stick to the stadium trance patches it's infamous for.  I can't speak to using the NL but it's everywhere in psy/goa so maybe I'm missing out :)

Plus for what it is I think they are overpriced, and the simpler and decade-old Nord Lead 1 and NL2 go for ridiculous sums on ebay.  I actually really like the VC  and got a sub-$800 deal on it - I'm just sore that I passed up a Q rack for it :)

i have a real like of vintage & unusual hardware synthesis & ive been building up a little collection for a while;

ah I recall a recent post of Q+ mods you made - very cool stuff - and recall a few things in the collection (MKS80, Andy) from previous posts etc.  would be curious to hear/see some of what you've done with that and your other gear.

as right now the ones id like to have to hand for projects are still within reach of my pockets & not quite super, super hard to come by just yet.

so i figured id get the acquisition of these things out of the way, whist i could still afford & find them...

LOL, right, I hear you there.... once I hit 30 (and hopefully have built the MBSID by then!), well, that's it, cold turkey... :D 

but yeah, you go in for vintage stuff, which as you note should be easier to recover costs on, assuming you find the right buyer etc.

tho just how one would play 12 notes with 10 figers ill never know ;)

Chopin and Liszt managed to squish in six-notes per hand on occasion, but no, I doubt polyphony would come into question... And the Virus polyphony and newer VAs clearly have it beat (or the TI can just bleat out another digital Supersaw on 128-osc Unison mode, yawn) and as for playing... 32 notes is a lot of fingers :D

matrix 1000 ocillators also behave oddly, breaking up into some bizarre grittiness in the low registers..

yes - I thought something was wrong with mine actually, until I did some reading.  it's not really usable either; experimental music, glitchcore if you gated it maybe...

yeah the matrix editors leave alot to be desired ..im thinking of programming my keystation to map it as completely as possible.

I run Linux exclusively (probably part of the reason I'm so unproductive at writing actual music again), Gentoo at that, so my options for software are... to put it kindly... rather limited.  Jsynthlib, which has failed to do anything but display a blank screen on setup since I upgraded it, and a handful of command-line sysex tools.  a patched pir8 copy of SoundDriver sort of works under WINE sometimes... it's abysmal.  I've actually been thinking of rolling my own minimalistic patch editor that works in text mode.  Since going Xmonad the GUI just doesn't appeal to me much anymore :D

yup theres alot of really good factory patches on the m1000, only theres a small risk some of them may well be over used by now ..however who ares depends on what youre audience has been exposed to ;)

Digging through some of those factory patches showed me just how little I know about programming a synth!

[Artesia]

ahha...

well the only hardware va synths that have tickled my snobbish standards where the waldorfs ..the q & xt with its waveshaping tools are so easily coaxed into sounding monstrously fat ..without feeling like you maybe missing out on something :)

curiously enough, i went to see Jean Michelle Jarre perform his opening night performance of his world tour afew days back at birmingham symphonic hall. He's touring with all his old analog synths (tons and tons of them) and performing oxygene as a live and somewhat improvised performance. ...pretty amazing sight as well as sound it was ;)

but getting to the point, on his opening speech he mentioned how he just didnt get that emotive feeling & the sound he liked with modern digital synths; with exception of the ones made by waldorf ! :) ..yay.

theres a demo of a patch i hacked up for the q+ on the page with it on.. other stuff consists of me working on and with other peeps stuff.. and its down to their own bickering as to when that stuff ends up finished & online rather than just performed live. There are bits i have been working on myself, but with everything else going on, and more time spent programming patches than anything else ;) ..i've not got my own bits finished yet to a state that im happy with. ...soon with abit of luck :)

selling it on later... well i personally couldnt care if the synths end up worth a mansion or a tin of baked beans... its just classic sound making equipment id like to have access to :) ..so much better than buying some shitty overpriced painting which all you can do is stare at it as it stands and go ...'gee thats pretty'.

id be buried with these in my morseleum ;) ..however its abit of a crime to prevent such instruments from making more music once im gone :)

chopin ...showoff ;)

linux ..well i use (ubuntu) linux on my werb pc ..and xp for music ...dont think alot to vista tho.

hmm... only if those VA makers stopped concentrating on polyphony ..and instead concentrated on making the dsp power punch out a handful of really, really impressive notes ;)

yes.. im quite surprised about how some of the factory programmers have managed to coax certain sounds out of synths ...its a good way to learn a trick or two ...mind for most synths the factory patches arent all that amazing ..and usually sell a synth short on the incredible potential that some have.

[Artesia]

ah yes ..that detuned virus trance string sound ...something which the andromeda i found is also rather good at ;) ..but its abit of an overused cleche right now ...abit like 303 squarbles ..kind of thing best used sparingly ..if at all :)

[a7thson]

ahha...

well the only hardware va synths that have tickled my snobbish standards where the waldorfs ..

this and the later comment about Jarre's endorsement (which Waldorf marketers should get a hold of and license :D) makes me more determined to make a Q (or, gulp, Q+) the next object of gearlust to victimize my bank accounts!  The amazing thing with Obie Matrix-1000 and even moreso I'm sure with the Matrix-12, is that you just PLAY and, like magic, it sounds GOOD.  Look into some of the better, great-sounding Virus patches and it's heavy FX and the mod matrix lights up like a christmas tree... point being you have to do a lot of work to make it sound good / non-cliche'd.

hmm... only if those VA makers stopped concentrating on polyphony ..and instead concentrated on making the dsp power punch out a handful of really, really impressive notes ;)

sure... but if they sucked less, the vintage market would crash, and no one would feel the need to make DIY synths to fill the gap for those that can't afford to join the synth-aristocrats but also don't want to make commercial cookie-cutter sounds!  rock, meet hard place... LOL.

As for O/S, I went Linux five years back, concurrent for a year with XP on my laptop, then took the plunge and never looked back... but in music and in cutting-edge gaming, Windoze is light years ahead of Linux.  also IMHO linux audio is full of ambitious but pretentious developers trying to make a perfect audio solution instead of something that just works for most cases.

I had a mammoth reply penned, but will probably clean it up and redirect chunks of that to a PM so as to not hijack the thread too much.  So mote it be, and thus ends post #7

[Artesia]

the vinttage market wont completely fold in  much the same way that itll be a looong time before djs ditch vynl.

also whats curious is that analogs 'imperfections' are what makes  it sound amazing.. whereas digitals imperfections usually only serve to make them sound weak & confused.

[a7thson]

ah yes ..that detuned virus trance string sound ...something which the andromeda i found is also rather good at ;) ..but its abit of an overused cleche right now ...abit like 303 squarbles ..kind of thing best used sparingly ..if at all :)

LOL, overused cliches - of such things the commercial world is made :-D  but I do agree.  still continually I'm amazed at the versatility of what is such a seemingly simple synth (the three-oh-three) can be abused for without just getting trite.  I'm a big listener to oldskool goa-trance, and like modern psytrance for background noise at work or writing or coding at home :-) and Nord Lead is all over that stuff in somewhat the same way... it's a sameness, but it still grows on you. 

I think a non-TI Virus can get a pretty nice saw with Oscs 1 and two on slightly detuned saw, one octave apart, subosc on saw as well, then unison mode 3-5 voices and FX to add a short delay that backs off quickly and has high feedback.  It's not a JP8000 but it isn't bad at all.  Virus can certainly be "phat" but I had a fun surprise the day I turned Unison mode on the Matrix-1k while testing my X-station mappings, then hit a low register note while happening to be on a bass patch... kind of startling how "only" 6 voices can sound compared to 32 isn't it?! :)  The TI does it quite differently with a dedicated waveshape, as I understand it, thus that thing can vomit them out from every voice.

That said, I'm sure one can do neat stuff with the supersaw, as it's a very complex waveform and would sure make an interesting modulation source.  Damn -- between just the Andy, Matrix-12, and Q+. you have almost every sonic potential you can think of out there sans a Moog Voyager and a Russian-built or DIY room-filling modular.  Quite a synth aristocracy!!

[Artesia]

cleches indeed they are.. tho i like to discover new things.. or failing that; re-invent them a little :)

ah yes the old goa and psy trance.. got dribs and drabs of it here on the playlist one particularly memorable song/mixset by some european chap who ran flying rhino ? ..records ..and was arrested for something to do with consuming large quantity of mushrooms not long after i had it ..meh ! :)

ah yes.. if you can modulate the feedback time on the delay ..try modulating it very slightly with a fast random/sqr envelope for even more fatness. ..also could try this with pitch on the oscillators ..but may not work as well ..when its not 4am here again ..ill turn the keys on and have another crack at that here :)

yup, unison used correctly can get bone crushing results out of a good analog :)

well.. iv'e put off getting a voyager just yet ...as they arent exactly rare (still in production of course ;) ) ...and a good friend has one which i can use when i need to. ..i used to have a moog prodigy ...but i sold it out of annoyance at not being able to save patches/remember sounds i found ...heh so spoilt with current tech ;) ..the money went towards the Andromeda. Will have my own voyager at some point as it is quality ...but a very, very expensive machine for what it has to offer.

modulars.. i think ill be passing on them ..way, way too big for monophonicness ..tho maybe a battered arp 2500 that needs nursing back to good heath ;)

[a7thson]

ah yes the old goa and psy trance.. got dribs and drabs of it here on the playlist one particularly memorable song/mixset by some european chap who ran flying rhino ? ..records ..and was arrested for something to do with consuming large quantity of mushrooms not long after i had it ..meh ! :)

LOL, yeah, and it seems Flying Rhino is back!  (http://www.flyingrhino.co.uk/) With most of their back catalog available as free mp3 downloads, and asks for charitable donations to a human rights cause in Goa, India.  I just found this info myself (and nearly salivate at the prospect of all that vintage goa!).  I have a few early Koxbox albums (not Dragon Tales though!) and some other artists, a small collection of ~40-50 CDs of psy/goa/psy-ambient, with 4-5x more if you like crappy Napster-era 128kbps mp3's...  Decidedly lacking in earlier UK/European psy though.  Oh, and MHO - I don't think there is anything equal to early Infected Mushroom albums, especially including later Infected Mushroom albums, nor anything comparing to "Are You Shpongled?" :-D  Not a lot of music outside certain highbrow "real music" amazes me, but those are exceptions to the rule.

ah yes.. if you can modulate the feedback time on the delay ..try modulating it very slightly with a fast random/sqr envelope for even more fatness. ..also could try this with pitch on the oscillators ..but may not work as well ..when its not 4am here again ..ill turn the keys on and have another crack at that here

Cool, let me know how that goes... It sounds like that would certainly add some depth.  That's definitely possible in the C's mod matrix.  I will try something with that on the "C" when I get the ambition -- not to push us even more off-topic, but I pulled out Wasteland (the old RPG) on Dosbox this weekend due to our crappy weather grounding me, and needing some escape... well, it's been eating every spare moment since Friday night - talk about an addicting game!  I even brewed up some late-night coffee just so I could keep playing last night... and am currently paying the price for that @ work as I stare off into space.. and find myself thinking about Wasteland! :D

Will have my own voyager at some point as it is quality ...but a very, very expensive machine for what it has to offer.

I like the idea of the Voyager, but yes, the fact is it's got very limited areas of application for most things.  But it does them like nothing else so they can charge (and get) that premium.  I know what you mean on modulars,too - and, no, they're not exactly the acme of portability!

I do have to ask though... what is the next bit of kit you're eyeing at the moment?  Or is it just time to heal up from the M12 for a few months? :P  I just bought some SIDs from Wilba (note to Wilba: payment sent :D ) and hopefully will get on with finally buying and building a kit soon enough... the Q will have to wait for at least summer I'm afraid.  btw, I'm being lazy not searching myself, but is there such a beast as a Q+ desktop/rackmount?  If so, I'm sure they're hard as the hills to find :(

EDIT: as an aside, I found and listened to the Q+ patch you made.... massive!  But it would really dominate any mix unless you were making drone ambient stuff.  It's similar to problems with patches I like that were cooked up on the Virus... I love subtle use of panning and the VC has an awesome chorus if you use a small amount and mod the panning env ever-so-slightly, from the same source, but the subtlety gets lost when you add in other instruments and sounds cluttered.  We can blame the damned limitations of the human brain to process sound I guess?

OK, Time to appear productive for a couple hours...

[Artesia]

im on the hunt for anything from the yamaha cs series, in any condition, working or not ..particularly the cs80 or cs30 (or gx1 ;) ...however they seem to change hands very rarely lately. and by the time one does ..i maybe able to afford fronting up the money again.

other than that, the original waldorf wave would round up the collection nicely; only there was a meer 300 made.

some other things maybe.. but i cant recall rn.

no q+ rackmount... i would have one if they made them as avoiding loads of keys has kept the physical dimensions of my studio manageable. ..mind the q+ now looks sweet ;)

if you can do without the analog filters ...you may wish to consider waldorfs Blofeld ..which incorporates all of their prior synthesis methods in a little tabletop box with a graphical interface ...and they sell for a bargain 300 ukp odd.

a friend is getting one soon, so ill let you know what i think of them comparitively.

yeah that q+ patch is gargantuan ...its best used against short percussive sounds & things of that nature.

[a7thson]

no q+ rackmount... i would have one if they made them as avoiding loads of keys has kept the physical dimensions of my studio manageable. ..mind the q+ now looks sweet ;)

Yeah, I found that out for myself shortly after posting this.  I'd love to see such a beast as the Q+ rack!  I just noticed in that Q+ post's pictures, it looks like you have a Poly Evolver rack as well... Another synth that packs a lot of punch, I'm sure.

if you can do without the analog filters ...you may wish to consider waldorfs Blofeld ..which incorporates all of their prior synthesis methods in a little

tabletop box with a graphical interface ...and they sell for a bargain 300 ukp odd.

a friend is getting one soon, so ill let you know what i think of them comparitively.

Yes, I'd absolutely like your opinion on it.  The 'desktop' form-factor is a point against it, I like rack-mounts for what ever strange reason, but that is ultimately a pretty minor thing.  Granted the VC is called 'desktop' but it's the 19" form factor with a rackmount kit, if you want to give up several units of rackspace that is!  In that it's similar to Q rack I guess, while Blofeld is more like AN200 or Evolver in size.

To tie us back to the original thread on the Matrix... ok, what Oberheim did with those little Toshiba 1Mhz chips in the M1000/M6R is admittedly damn impressive, but I can't help wondering what could be done with a more modern microcontroller driving all those classic CEM3396's across their analogue paths and perhaps making it more suitable to realtime control (I doubt you can remove the "slow" envelope limitation easily though).  I've no doubt it would be quite a project... but what a great possibility for a retro synth, and it could be housed in the case that's built like a tank :-D  M1000/M6R just seems to have this glossy mellow quality to it, whether it's due to the 4p filter or relative purity of the initial DCO waveforms - i.e. it's magic :D  Is something like this even a remote possibility for some gifted soul out there?

[Artesia]

the poly evolver is a dirty little beast ;) ..one of the fattest modern 'analogs' about.. a firm fave & a descendant of the original prophet synths.

brb ..gotta dash to the local b&q wharehoouse before it closes.

[Artesia]

well.. theres 'tons' of m1000/m6rs about ...and it would be no bad thing to make a mios module to drop straight into the current cases and hijack the hardware in the least destructive manner possible.. and yes, alot more could be done with those 3396 chips.. it should be possible to actually make something which is in programming terms at least an equal to an expander/m12 ...only that the exp/m12 will still be a notch above in sound ;)

its something peeps here should be encouraged to look into ...we've done the yamaha ym-262, mos sid chips ..so how about oberheim 3396's next ? ;)

id do it myself, only i have other things to grapple with rn & i have yet to fully get to grips with the coding required ...the logic behind the language heracy & module structure still confuses the hell out of me !

[a7thson]

well.. theres 'tons' of m1000/m6rs about ...and it would be no bad thing to make a mios module to drop straight into the current cases and hijack the hardware in the least destructive manner possible.. and yes, alot more could be done with those 3396 chips.. it should be possible to actually make something which is in programming terms at least an equal to an expander/m12 ...only that the exp/m12 will still be a notch above in sound ;)

Agreed about the Xpander (which as I understand it is basically half an M12 :D) and M12 - The superior specs are self-evident of course, and we'd expect superior sound in a large majority of cases at least.

As for a 'hardware replacement' - yes, I had the same thought... it would be very affordable and the existing hardware would make for an incredible little synth.  This would have quite different application - upgrade/"turbocharge" an existing architecture with minimal invasiveness to the original hardware - than simply building from scratch a synth based on six CEM3396 chips.  It is probably too much to ask to actually make it literally compatible with the existing M1000 with minimal modifications, though that would be the ideal.  Maybe you could even emulate the original CPU at several times the original's operating speed if the hardware would support being driven at a higher rate (which I suspect would be the case), then have practically a drop-in replacement :D ... maybe.  I don't know enough to properly limit my speculation.

its something peeps here should be encouraged to look into ...we've done the yamaha ym-262, mos sid chips ..so how about oberheim 3396's next ? ;)

Only two things I don't like about the idea... the body count for perfectly good M1000 and M6R's, and the limited supply of CEM3396 chips to DIY with as a viable alternative to gutting a functional synth in order to pull them.  Though I suspect if you managed to do it, these 'moral' objections would be quickly superceded!

[Artesia]

well its much the same argument with the matrix 1000 as it is with the commodore computers ..theres alot of people from the computing world which would object with horror at old commodores being completely trashed for a sound chip.

whereas adding a module to a m1000 in a way which it could be removed if it was really desired is pretty non destructive. and going the route that requires the original hardware, could help prevent the remaining stock of spare chips for the synths drying up so quick.

unfortunately speeding up the program alone wouldnt work, amoungst other things, the timing specifically relates to the midi & chip bus rates & without finding out where their ratio flags are; it would completely knock everything out of sync & out of touch.

far easier to take note of the 3396 or multiplexer chips (if fast enough to be useful) communication protocols & work a mios implementation from there.. which allows for the addition of things like boatloads of envelopes & modulation sources :)

tho yeah ..what they got those chips to do in the first place was pretty impressive for the money.

[a7thson]

well its much the same argument with the matrix 1000 as it is with the commodore computers ..theres alot of people from the computing world which would object with horror at old commodores being completely trashed for a sound chip.

I'm one of them!  I couldn't bring myself to trash my old C64 either, and hate the idea of perfectly good hardware being ransacked for two chips, like a rhino for its horn, elephant for its tusks, shark for its fins, gorilla for its hands, etc.  they're all perfectly good animals!  Of course the hardware isn't alive (though some would argue otherwise :) ) ... nonetheless when I could buy a working Commodore on the 'bay for $15 and sell one chip inside for $20 to a wider market than the original hardware and at 1/8 to 1/10 my actual shipping cost for the C64 breadbox+PSU, the economic equation was pretty simple to junk the rest.  It's changing somewhat and C64 prices have risen, but there are still hundreds of thousands out there.  No idea how many M1000 / M6R's may be out there.

whereas adding a module to a m1000 in a way which it could be removed if it was really desired is pretty non destructive. and going the route that requires the original hardware, could help prevent the remaining stock of spare chips for the synths drying up so quick.

Agreed.  Another issue here is the fact it IS old hardware and that stock would be needed for everyone, *including* the DIY-module builders.  Keeping up the DIY-only, open-source philosophy would at least limit the commercialization, though speculative buyers are always a problem for any such market.

unfortunately speeding up the program alone wouldnt work, amoungst other things, the timing specifically relates to the midi & chip bus rates & without finding out where their ratio flags are; it would completely knock everything out of sync & out of touch.

far easier to take note of the 3396 or multiplexer chips (if fast enough to be useful) communication protocols & work a mios implementation from there.. which allows for the addition of things like boatloads of envelopes & modulation sources :)

Right, I mis-spoke a bit, in that I wasn't implying use of the original firmware (which is for our purposes a "black box" with little to no documentation or meaningful source code), just an emulation of that processor if necessary for precise timing issues or whatever else, in order to avoid sync problems.  I was assuming with a whole-number multiplier, stepping down the timings accordingly (i.e. processor runs at A, emulator runs at 3A, certain clock signals need to be emitted 3x slower than emulated CPU etc) would be fairly easy... then again who wants to work on that old processor?  You're probably right that the 'brain' can simply be replaced - of course whatever hardware was dependent upon idiosyncracies of its behavior or timing would have to be worked around.  And I am guessing that they had to play with a lot of clever hardware tricks for performance to make this work back in the day it was engineered.

tho yeah ..what they got those chips to do in the first place was pretty impressive for the money.

Still is, when you think about it, for vintage pseudo-analog!  These M1000's go for $150-220 regularly on Ebay.  It's about the price range of the AN200 or a DarkStar XP2 territory.  Those are good little synths but a lot more specialized/limited than a programmable M1000 in many respects.

[Artesia]

theres alot of m1000's about (only people are to some degree hanging onto them right now) ..probably one of oberheims most sucessful synths ..in the 90's it was the cheapest way to get access to loads of classic analog sounds for not much money..

this was the day when peoples studios where dominated by alot of preset sound machines & samplers which people tended to load preset librarys into ..so to them a minimalistic preset analog machine made sense.

[a7thson]

theres alot of m1000's about (only people are to some degree hanging onto them right now) ..probably one of oberheims most sucessful synths ..in the 90's it was the cheapest way to get access to loads of classic analog sounds for not much money..

this was the day when peoples studios where dominated by alot of preset sound machines & samplers which people tended to load preset librarys into ..so to them a minimalistic preset analog machine made sense.

Right; nowadays it's totally different, no one uses presets and soundsets for 90% of music out there :P

I watch Ebay regularly for Obies (and Q's, Evolvers, lots of others) for informational purposes via lots of saved searches... the 'bay definitely goes in cycles. Occasionally you even see a Matrix-12, and today, by sheer coincidence with our conversation, I see there is a Q+ being offered up, which is quite rare to see.  Poly-Evolver is interesting (4 Evolvers in one box) and seems to have audio input; I'm assuming one can direct audio through a single Evolver module then, and utilize its filters (or use the input audio as a mod source of course) while still having 3 Evolver modules free -- that would be quite a setup, really!

Back on the concept of a retrofitted Matrix-1000, though - it's definitely a concept that would appeal to a lot of DIY enthusiasts.  Despite its 3-digit display, M1000 patches are all named (cryptically, sure, but still...), and of course with the sysex issue remedied, so an enhanced display is not entirely out of the question (nor would be a control surface for the truly ambitious), and the synth would be fully controllable and tweak-friendly for realtime work.  The existing patch storage is probably quite adequate but there is no reason [given that we're already writing our own firmware here :D so what the heck] not to support a bankstick or the like for patch storage.  It could be hard to remove the biggest complaint about the Matrix-1000 (or at least the black-faced model like mine), the power-supply hum, but in terms of just the audio output of course, plugging it into my Firepod (balanced inputs and pretty good pre-amp) seems to take care of that quite nicely, and even the X-Station's balanced stereo inputs cleans the signal of any noticeable hum.  The unit itself, of course, still hums in the rack :D but luckily mine is not terribly loud.

A quick question before I leave this aside for awhile - does the M12 suffer from the same issues with regard to envelope speed and the sysex bottleneck of its little cousin M1000/M6R?  They don't share near the "genealogy" of the M12 and Xpander (father and son?) so would assume the product lines were developed fairly independently from one another?  Also, how do you rate the keyboard and key response on this thing -- I've been reading up on it in the past few days (for obvious reasons) and one of the complaints seems to be the cheap feel and response of the keyboard.  I also see in the specs there are no provisions for external audio in/out, so [unfortunately] no chance to use its versatile filters to process ext. audio sources, which is too bad.

Main reference I found was the hyperreal archive:  http://machines.hyperreal.org/manufacturers/Oberheim/Xpander.Matrix-12/  ... Google turns up far more links to a Matrix 12 fish-finder, but Oberheim and/or Xpander made the keyword a lot more productive :-D

[Artesia]

replyings getting difficult rn ..the forum is sucking on serverage...

you'd be surprised about presets.. in certain circles they still get used alot ..and there are lots and lots of presets now ...not a big fan of them myself mind ..lol. but even i have to admit starting with a basic patch and elaborating on it is useful from time to time ..lol.

audio in poly evolver can be routed any manner of ways depending on the patch configuration.

its possible to add audio in to the matrix 12, expander and m1000 by making a switchable insert which replaces the noise source.. i may do this to the m12, but i have other things to tend to rn.

well, on the possible m1000 upgrade ..a number is all that most people would need, and they would use a pc editor / interface with full readout to ammend this issue for programming.

i dont generally get a hum issue ...make sure your audio gear is on the same mains feed and you dont have any ground loops thus.

you can gate your sounds for cleaning up any low level noise.

the m1000/6r has some major lag issues on some perameters, because its cpu is woefully underpowered for realtime & rapid response.

the m12 is plenty fast enough for most mods, and mods in real time.

however all of them could be a smidge (milliseconds) faster on attack of the envelopes ..which makes highly percussive sounds a little soft & lends these synths to being best at bass, horns, pads & effects.

this could equally be a software or a hardware lag issue.. and maybe improved upon with the m1000 mod.

the keyboard response could be better & it is a little finicky to get it 'tuned' right to the desired velocity response... it does work, but it could be better and could be changed for another.

however its not the sort of handicap that'd impair the typical demands of playing live or for non taxing studio stuff.. it could of course have no velocity response at all; like the roland jupiter ..and that would really suck ;) ..however for critical performance, using another keyboard / a dedicated controller maybe advantageous.

[a7thson]

replyings getting difficult rn ..the forum is sucking on serverage...

I know - I've been trying all morning, and finally got through period.  So I'll make this short in case that changes.  And of course it will artificially inflate my post count as a side effect.  Needless to say it's quite annoying/frustrating, hopefully whatever is wrong gets solved soon.

I guess I forgot the /sarcasm tag in the comment on presets btw... presets are huge business, even moreso perhaps, and hundreds of 'soundsets' out there of "teh lastest" soundz you must use if you are a top producer, naturally.  :)  Signal path info for replacing noise source with audio input on the M1000 is very interesting, can you toss me at some documentation on that?  I'll laugh if it's on hyperreal and I just missed it.  As for the humming M1000, I didn't mean I was getting audio noise, just that most 'hum' would be removed by my setup so I would not have noticed unless I plugged headphones directly into the unit; and through the Firepod or X-Station it is silence even when the unit is on and humming.  I meant literally that the unit itself hums when in operation.  Whether I plug it straight into the wall, through line conditioner, or into my UPS.  I read somewhere it is a design flaw in their choice of transformer for the PSU and it's possible to replace but messing with power is not a hardware mod for a rank amateur like myself so I will just put up with the noise I guess.  It's louder when the unit is horizontal; putting it at an angle reduces that for some reason - no idea whether it will run vertically even quieter or what, I've never tried it.  Anyway, I'll try to address the rest of the comments in a few hours (with any luck, and assuming I can get onto the forum again!)