Newbie Here, Ideas for Making SID Music Easily?

[michitakem]

Hi all,

I'm an old C64 user from back in the day, and I have a musical background in bands (ha- I'm still poor at keyboards or reading sheet music, darned Suzuki method), but I've left off both for many years, only to return with interest after checking out the C64 Takeaway Podcast, and Remix Kwed.org

I'd like to play around and make some modern remixes of old C64 game tunes - or original stuff - but want to incorporate a lot of cool old SID sounds.  So that means I want to do the majority of it on my PC, maybe hook up a C64 if that makes sense.  (Have no idea how to do even that - just some kind of serial cable transfer?)  I do have some basic audio equipment for mixing.

I have an old C64 I suppose I COULD modify --- and I loved the YouTube video demonstration of the "MIDIbox SID Bassline Session c64".  However I doubt I'd have the time and patience to get a project like that right.  At least not yet.  I'd probably end up with an unuseable C64 and a bunch of wires and components hanging out of it.

So...despite there being a lot of DIY here on this site, I was wondering if you guys had a good commercial suggestion -- say something like Prophet64, or heck, anything that would let me play around with some SID goodness without spending a month soldering something together.

Heck, to get my feet wet I wouldn't mind it being a largely Windows/PC -based solution, though from what I gather the SID emulation is never quite the same.

Any ideas?  I don't have a big budget now to lay out for some expensive device, but may be able to justify one some time in the future.

I live in the States, so if the commercial item is not available here then....  :'(

Sorry if the answer is something really obvious, but I'm fresh on this scene and have no clue.  I'm going into the WIKI here to see if I can find some basic how-tos.  Maybe after playing around a bit I'll be ready to move on to making my own SID box...

TIA! ;D

[frailn]

Hey, I'm a NEWB, too. I was looking for the same thing about a year ago, then found midibox.org and changed my mind. Wilba's MB-6582 is just too awesome not to take the time to build. Here are my suggestions based on what I've researched:

MSSIAH - coming out sometime in the next month or two. It's the next generation of Prophet64. mssiah.com

I have a Prophet64 cartridge combined with a FB_SS Stereophonic-SID Cartridge. http://www.c64net.com/fotios/fbss.php. This combination doesn't require any modification of an existing C64. You just need to find an extra SID chip for the FB_SS. You could spend a lot of time using a P64 or MSSIAH to create custom SID music. I don't know if Fotios is making anymore FB_SS cartridges, he might build one for you if you ask. You can find P64's on eBay sometimes. The new MSSIAH will cost around $78 US currency. Throw in an FB_SS for $33 and buy an extra SID for around $25, and you can have a powerful system for around $136 USD.

Synthcart - http://qotile.net/cynthcart.html - It's a fun little cartridge you can plug into your 64 and play like a keyboard. If you have paddles, you can even control sound. It's limited, but fun, and requires no mods to your 64.

HardSid - http://www.hardsid.com/ - It's expensive! But, you won't have to mod a C64, just get 1 (minumum) to 4 (maximum) SID chips to plug into this and then plug it into your computer via USB. Occasionally, you can find the HardSid Quattro (discontinued production) on eBay. Here is a site that describes it - http://www.reflexaudio.com/products_hardsid.htm

Or you can go the old fashioned way and use old C64 music creation software on your existing C64. You can buy old disks on eBay. Or you can get free copies of programs here - http://www.lemon64.com/apps/list.php?Genre=sound. In order to get the free programs to load into your old Commodore,  you could use Star Commander - http://sta.c64.org/sc.html or 64HDD - http://www.64hdd.com to load the programs from your PC to the C64. You would need an XE-1541 cable. I bought one from a guy in Poland via eBay for less than $15.00. I've tried the cable with Star Commander and 64HDD. Both are great, just depends upon your taste. I will say 64HDD had a much steeper learning curve than Star Commander. But, once you get it going, it's much better than Star Commander because it turns an old trash PC into a virtual drive for your Commodore 64.

My suggestion to you is - build a MidiBox! I've never done anything with electronics before and I'm going to try this out. It's worth the money - and it's not very expensive to start a small project with one SID chip. You can build a simple MidiBox using the information on this website. It's easy to pull your SID chip out of your C64 and plug it into the SID module for MidiBox. If you decide later you want to keep your old C64 "original" then just put that chip back in! Since you said, "I don't have a big budget now to lay out for some expensive device, but may be able to justify one some time in the future..." Then that means you have the time to start a midibox project. It will be worth it, and you'll learn a lot about that SID chip and synthesizing music that will help your creativity.

[michitakem]

Thanks frailin!  Lots of great tips (I will paraphrase your suggestions on my personal blog with a link here), and some I had considered but wasn't sure about. 

It struck me like a hammer (doh!) after you suggested it, since I'm very familiar with C64 emulators on Windows, to go find some old SID music creation software that ran on the C64....!  That will allow me to "play around" and get used to mixing and making music with a SID - even if the emulator is a poor substitute for the real sound of a SID chip.

Then of course will come the next steps...including ultimately one of the other ideas you listed.  I'm not ruling out building a MidiBox, I just want to make sure I'm well prepared so I don't start it and give up mid-way with a mess of wires and stuff.

BTW, out of curiosity, why is it that HardSID (I saw one solution for sale for the Mac, which I don't have) and other aftermarket items do not include the SID chips?  I've seen the bulk sales here -- why can't the company that sells HardSID include SID chips in their solutions?  Some kind of copyright thing or lack of supply?

Anyway, thanks again, your response has gotten me fired up!  ;D

[DrBunsen]

Another option would be the Triad Midislave which is recent software and DIY hardware to turn your 64 into a MIDI synth module.

You may be misled by first impressions if you think the MIDIbox SID is a "modification" of a C64.  It's a whole new DIY hardware platform.  Some people choose to use C64 cases to mount the new hardware in, which can lead to confusion.  The only Commodore hardware inside the box is the SID itself, and occasionally a Commodore power supply.

[frailn]

BTW, out of curiosity, why is it that HardSID (I saw one solution for sale for the Mac, which I don't have) and other aftermarket items do not include the SID chips?

I don't think anyone is manufacturing SID chips any longer. The SID's for sale by Wilba on this board are new-old-stock that seems to be hard to come by. I attempted to do the same as Wilba - I searched for an Asian source for SID's and actually found one, but then I got a little freaked out by the purchasing process. I was worried I was going to get scammed by an unknown company in China. So, I was glad to find Wilba's mega-sale here at MidiBox. In fact, I've got 10 SID's from Wilba shipping this week!

Before I found Wilba's sale, I was collecting SID's out of old C64's. I would look for stores that have broken C64's and salvage the SID's. I have like 6 busted C64's in the closet that are driving my wife crazy. I found a guy who sells old Atari equipment and he just happened to have six 64's in various states of disrepair that he shipped to me for a good price. The SID's may or may not be in good shape, it's a risk.

The Elektron Sid Station, which is no longer manufactured, was shipped with SID's, but they stopped building them because they ran out of SID's. They were using new-old-stock as well.

I highly suggest placing your name on Wilba's Mega-Sale #6 SID chip bulk order. Get as many as you can afford because I think they won't be around much longer. They are 6582A SID's manufactured in 1992. They've been sitting in storage since '92.

Another solution would be to build your own SID - I think there are instructions for doing so somewhere on the MidiBox wiki.

[michitakem]

More awesome tips guys, thanks!

I'm also realizing after reading more around here that just because someone uses a SID chip doesn't mean they make or enjoy Commodore 64-style SID music. :)