Project: LRE8x2x4

[TK.]

LRE8x2x4 is based on Fairlightiii's PCB: http://www.midibox.o...id=fairlightiii

4 modules are chained, so that 64 rotary encoders with LED rings are available.

 

Power consumption: ca. 720 mA (it's still possible to supply this construction from a USB hub with 1A PSU)

 

This MIDIbox NG is based on:

• a MBHP_CORE_LPC17 module
• a SD Card to store the configuration (and later also the snapshots)
• four LRE8x2 PCBs
• an optional SCS, e.g. to switch between 4 banks and to store snapshots (in future)

Configuration file: lre8x2x4.ngc

 

Special notes: the .NGC file configures the ledrings for ULN2803 based Transistor Darlington arrays which will invert the selection lines for the LED rings.

If you've built the PCB without the transistor arrays (which actually don't really improve the brightness), then please change the "DOUT_MATRIX ... inverted=1" definition to "DOUT_MATRIX ... inverted=0", otherwise the LED rings won't work correctly!

 

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[Duggle]

The *.ngc file posted has #bank 1, #bank 2, etc, written above each group of definitions. But there are no actual banks defined, right? 

[TK.]

Yes, I was too lazy to define events for the remaining banks. ;)

 

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[TomViolenz]

Hello everyone in this great community :smile:

 

I came across this thread because this is almost exactly what I would like to have and since no-one is selling something like this, I decided to take the jump and try to build my own. From reading a few threads here it looks like I came to the right place! :-)

 

I first want to describe my abilities:

 

-I can't program, and even though that might not make me popular here, I would also like to avoid learning it. (Some scripting is ok I guess)

I consider myself rather a dedicated musician, who want's his instrument to be juuust right! :-)

And controllers are my instruments!

 

-I still have to learn how to solder, but think that shouldn't be that hard to learn. I'm usually quite the handyman ;-)

 

Now to my goal:

 

-I want to build a matrix mixer in an 8x8 layout of 64 push endless encoders, without detents and LED ring - I'm willing to remove the detents myself if no such product exists with push and without detents.

-I would like the encoders to be butter smooth and precise so a higher resolution than 128 data points would be most welcome.

-I don't need any preset handling or displays (other than the rings) because I have a specific need for the device and all encoders will be permanently Midi assigned to fixed parameters in Ableton Live.

-I would like the push part of the encoder to be independently assignable to Midi commands other than the ones controlled by the encoder when it is turned.

-I would like the device to be powered by USB from the Laptop if possible.

 

So my questions are:

-Would this be achievable under the given circumstances?

-What parts do I need and where can I buy them

-What software packages do I need and just generally how will I get the device to talk to Live

- Are there blog posts or threads, where a project like this, or something close to this, is documented, so I could closely follow the advice therein.

-What other skills/knowledge do I need to aquire before I have a chance to succeed

-What costs am I looking at for realizing the project (just the parts) (The casing not considered)

 

I will really appreciate any help and pointers I could get from you guys and apologize if these kind of newbee questions where posted in the wrong part of the forum!

 

Thanks,

Tom

Edited November 8, 2013 by TomViolenz

[Duggle]

Welcome!

I can't answer all your questions, but I can answer few.

 

-I can't program, and even though that might not make me popular here, I would also like to avoid learning it. (Some scripting is ok I guess)

 

 No programming required. You'll base the project on Midibox NG firmware which you flash into the LPC17 core module. The script which configures your controller is a text file that lives on the SDcard attached to the core. This is the part that allows you to define exactly what all the controls do, and how the LED rings behave in relation to the feedback they receive from your DAW (Ableton).

 

-I want to build a matrix mixer in an 8x8 layout of 64 push endless encoders, without detents and LED ring - I'm willing to remove the detents myself if no such product exists with push and without detents.

These are available no problem.

I have made a very similar panel based on PCB's similar to TK's photo above. It will work USB powered.

 

 

-I would like the push part of the encoder to be independently assignable to Midi commands other than the ones controlled by the encoder when it is turned.

 

In addition to the encoder PCBs, you need to connect to 2x DINx4 PCBs that will give you the 64 push switch inputs.

 

My advice is to ask Fairlightiii if there are any more Encoder LED Ring PCB's available.

A lot of the other stuff is avalable at SmashTV's shop . He gives very good service.

 

You can save a lot of money by sourcing the encoders from traders on Ebay(e.g. $0.60 each, free postage). Make sure you research the specifications to get exactly what you want.

I have undetented encoders in mine and they are "butter smooth"!  MIDIbox NG allows the customisation of the "speed" of the encoder action that will give you the response I think you are after.

 

There is much for you to read up on (go to uCApps.de) and also the WIKI article on the encoder LED rings PCB.

 

Lastly, I have just started my journey with Ableton Live 9 and a "Push" control surface. I am blown away.  I use REAPER and plan to sync Ableton via Rewire.

I'll be really interested in how you use Ableton with MIDIbox.

Edited November 8, 2013 by Duggle

[TomViolenz]

Hey Duggle thanks for answering so quickly!

 

Since you are a Push user maybe I can already give something small back. Lives own devices have really shitty mappings in Push, so we have set out in the Live forums to remedy this and changed the device.pyc file with a really great mapping for all instruments and FX:

Check it out and get the download link here: https://forum.ableton.com/viewtopic.php?f=55&t=198946

 

Congratulations on Push btw. It's a great experience! (I'm still saving up for mine)

 

For how I want to use this Matrix Mixer I have to explain my "art" first.

I am more a painter in sound than a musician really (or want to be ;-) )

The idea to this is already used by people like Toshimaruna Akamura http://www.furious.com/perfect/toshimarunakamura.html

 

What I want to do for this is "play" feed back like an instrument.

For this I make 6 return tracks and activate all the sends in these return tracks. I use one track as input (This will be a bus track for several other tracks). The first column of 8 encoders will be assigned to the 6 sends of the bus track and level + pan. The next six columns of 8 encoders each will be assigned to the 6 sends  of each return track and the respective levels and pan. The last column of encoders will be assigned to level and cue of the master and the 6 others to filter freq and gain in 3 filters in EQ8 (HP, Peak, LP). The push functionality of each encoder will get Midi assigned xTriggers that I set up in the user remote utility clyphX. The xTriggers will basically have the function to automatically lower the parameter the encoder was controlling to -inf over the duration of 1 Bar. This is basically an emergency brake for this parameter, because feed back can get nasty FAST!

I hope I made it clear and interesting :-)

 

Would you have a link to the endless push button encoders without detents that you used? I have only found in my google searches one company and they seem to be for big industry sales only (you had to inquire for quotes). I would also appreciate if you could link to discussions that let a lay person understand the LPC17 core module and Midibox NG firmware and their function that would already help a lot.

Thanks for your kind help :smile:

Tom

 

[Duggle]

Hi Tom,

thanks for the info re: remapping Push. I'll look into this.

 

Your application that makes use of static mappings is particularly straight forward.

 

Have you read the articles linked to in post#1 of this thread?

Also Midibox NG and DIN (the kits are available from SmashTV for this)

 

The encoders (detented with push switch) are here  (as an example). BTW I bought these, but haven't tested these yet, but am confident.

The encoders (nondetented without push switch) here  I used these, and they work well, very smooth.

 

My advice: be patient read a lot (there is plenty to read) and enjoy.

BTW; the hardware designs have been made so that no particular experience is necessary (i.e newby friendly!)

 

Of course, as in all things, a willingness to learn is essential.

[TomViolenz]

Hey thanks again,

 

For the encoders I'm missing the combination I want: without detent, with push do you know of a source for this kind?

Otherwise I will either have to remove the detents or try to buy from the industry supplier. Because detents would totally ruin it for my application.

 

And yeah,  I'm looking forward to a lot of learning...

(For instance I didn't even know what detents were a day ago ;-) )

[Duggle]

Mouser, Digikey and the german one Riechfelt (or whatever, sorry Im mobile atm.) all have webshops and extensive search engines and datasheets to check the specs. You can buy small quantities. Use the example I provided as a guide. The configuration you want is out there.

[TomViolenz]

I'll check them! I was just so insistant about it, because another poster told me that this combination does unfourtunately not exist. So i'm glad it does :-)

Edited November 9, 2013 by TomViolenz

[Duggle]

One procedure you could follow:

Go back here

Download the data sheet. Look at the pad spacings on the mechanical diagram on the second page. This is what you need to fit the PCB. (I'm assuming that you'll be able to get hold of 4 x Firlightiii's PCBs) 

Go to this page: parametric search of encoders from digikey

Set the heading "Detent" to "No" and the heading "Built in switch" to "Yes".  You'll see a whole bunch that fit this criteria.  

The Bournes one(s) will fit the PCB footprint. Check it against the datasheet (which also explains the ordering code, "How To Order", btw).

I'm sure you'll be very happy with the performance of these with the MIDIbox NG firmware. The ones with 24 pulses per revolution work really well. NG has a range of "speed" settings that you will use in your script to suit the parameter you are controlling.

[TomViolenz]

COOL :-)

I really appreciate the help!

Thanks

[TomViolenz]

A couple quick questions regarding the encoders:

What would be better optical or mechanical.

What does slotted end/flattend end mean, which one is appropiate?

Should I go for the Life cycle maximum, or does that add to much cost for too little gain? What is a good life cyle value?

Thanks again!

[Duggle]

As I understand it, optical are more expensive but very long wearing, such as within a machine or device which rotates continuously. 

Slotted /flat is referring to the end of the shaft which the knob fits onto.

This brings up the subject of knobs (which can cost more than the encoder). Because almost all knobs you see have markers on them (making them inappropriate for encoders) they can be hard to find. I have found a cheap knob that looks o.k. that has an insert (available in different colours) that can be removed sanded down to remove the endented marker, then reinserted. These for are for $0.65 (AU) minimum of ten. These use flatted (which is probably more common).http://www.jaycar.com.au/productView.asp?ID=HK7707

The Bournes encoders are rated at minimum 100k full revolutions. This is a lot of tweaking (do the math)  :smile:

[TomViolenz]

Cool thanks for clearing that up. I'm not sure the little marking would bother me much, but I think the time for ordering knobs has not arrived for me yet ;-)

[=FFW=>]

Hi there,

 

 

while reconfiguring my NG a question came up.

How can one configure the LEDs of one encoder in one

bank to be "all off" because encoder X in bank X is

always off and has no function?

Thanks in advance for helping me.

 

 

cheers

 

Daniel

 

[TK.]

It seems that an "off" pattern is missing... :-/

 

Best Regards, Thorsten.