Help??

[Guest daveojo]

Hi, Ive just found this site. It was an idea Ive had for a while to modify a c64 into what amounts to a cheap sidstation.

Problem is I know very little about electronics (only what Ive picked up from circuitbending and frankly that seems quite crude compared with what Im facing here  :-[) and I know nothing whatsoever about programming (which I gather is going to be a problem.)

I know people who can help me out on that front though.

The site doesnt seem to be tailored to the complete beginner unfortunately so I dont know aht Im looking at. Are there any really basic step by step guides to making a synth from a c64 out there?

What materials do I need etc etc?

Im lost.

[illogik]

Hi,

i know the amount of data on the ucapps website can be a bit confusing when you first look at it, but believe me, when you take your time and read the relevant info/pages on the (well documented!!) website(or better; all of the info ;)) i'm sure you can figure a great deal out yourself. if you still got questions then, i'm sure the people of this forum will be happy to help you!

If you want to build the MBSID synth (C64) you should start reading; MHBP Projects->Midibox Sid Synthesizer. On these pages you can find all the steps/info on building. aswell as links to other relevant pages for the MBHP project.

good luck,

marcel

[Guest daveojo]

Sorry if it sounded like I dont appreciate the info on the site. It just doesnt seem to me to be organized in a way which is intuitive.

For example: I go to the page about the MBSID. I want to fit a hardware interface to a c64 so that I can exploit the capabilities of the sid chip. So I check step A. Immediately it starts discussing the coding of lcd screens. Infuriating! >:(

And the pdf schematics dont mean anything to me.

Are there a whole bunch of understandable pages that I'm missing?

Checking the hardware requirements for step a is also no help. Why no plain english?

Why isnt there a really basic step by step guide to transforming your commodore with pictures to guide you (such as Ive seen for circuitbending which is a far less predictable art.) Everything is too scattered and disorganized.

I apologise for my ignorance but christ, I have a college degree and I still cant work this out. It's like you dont want people to know how to do this. ???

[Dave_Wheeler]

Hi Daveojo,

OK, Simple instructions. Unplug SID chip from C64. Get big hammer and smash the rest as it is not used  :) :)

All Joking aside, The MBSID is not an interface to a C64, it uses the SID and can also use the PSU.

If you look on the SID page you will see what boards are needed, I built mine on Veroboard as I didn't want to wait for PCB's but you will need 1*core and 1*SID PCB. If you get them from Smash he can also do a pre-programmed PIC at a good price. The PIC 18F452 is the 'Brain' and MIOS is the equivelent to an operating system.

With just these 2 boards (populated) and LCD display and some time you can get some noise out of the SID by using the free midi utility called MidiOx and there is also a java based patch editor on the site. If you have problems getting a programmed PIC with the bootloader just ask on the forum as there are midiboxers all over the world (I'm in the UK and will gladly blow a PIC for you).

Moving on, for the 'A' control surface you will need a DIN PCB (or some Veroboard) a few switches and a rotary encoder, step B uses more of the DIN board and step C uses DIN and DOUT boards.

Welcome to the community.

Dave

[goyousalukis]

Hi Daveojo,

As Dave said, this is not a project that uses the whole commodore 64. It only uses the sound chip.

So I check step A. Immediately it starts discussing the coding of lcd screens. Infuriating!  

That is because MidiBox step A uses an LCD to display the control menu for the MbSID. This is not a site that shows you how to do anything you want with the C64. It shows you how to make Thorsten's MidiBox Sid. Another user posted a link to something that you might be interested in. I think it was some C64 software you loaded and then controlled the C64 via a serial port on the PC. I will look for it and post it if I can find it.

Justin

[Jurbo]

These pages are excellent, maybe not 100% as clear as I'd like, but 95%, anyway.

Daveojo, just take the time to read through the site (preferably several times) and you'll very probably find an answer to every question that might pop into your head (and the rest can be solved here on the forum).

My earlier experience on electronics is mainly working with electric guitars and some improvised repairs on hi-fi equipment, computer disk drives, etc., and I have only some actual understanding of electronic components, but I'm totally confident that I'll get my 2 SID Control Surface C machine ready and working before Christmas.

It took me maybe 1,5 weeks of browsing around the site to understand enough to be able to place my parts orders (kits with pcbs and components, plus a lot of other stuff). Now I have 2 working sid/core combinations, one with a LCD, plus the din and dout modules (not tested) for the Control Surface. I have been building this thing slowly for about a month (a full-time job plus a lot of other activities occupy most of my time), and I'm about to move on into building the case and the actual physical interface.

This project definitely isn't for the impatient (I'm roughly estimating my project to total about 80-120 hours), and it's quite far from being free, but man, is it rewarding and educating!  8)

(At first I thought that 1000 euros for a Sidstation is hugely overpriced, but now I just think it's not cheap!)  ;D

[Mickey_Sadler]

Hi

I apologise for my ignorance but christ, I have a college degree and I still cant work this out.

So THAT'S the problem!

I have found that most people with college degrees try to make easy things hard.

I am 66 years old and started building circuits at age 12 or so, learning from the ARRL Radio Amateurs Handbook. I went to a 2 year technical school, and when working I went to classes at work. I have found that most people that had problems understanding "things" were people with college degrees. I worked with one fellow who had a Masters in Physics and a Masters in Electronics Engineering . He designed a door interlock circuit for a piece of equipment with multivibrator circuitry and a bunch of other parts. When I started ordering parts to build it I found he had specified parts from catalogs that were special order and could not be completed in time. I used a door interlock switch designed for the purpose instead. It took me an hour to explain how it worked so he would OK the installation. If the door is closed, the switch makes contact and power is applied. If the door is opened, a spring loaded plunger opens the switch and power is disconnected. If you need to work on the equipment, open the door, pull out on the plunger to a detented position and the switch makes contact. If you forget to push the plunger back in, just shutting the door does it for you. It took an hour with diagrams and a physical tryout several times to convince him that it did work and how it worked. Two Masters degrees! Humph!

Sorry about the grumpiness, but it does take some reading and digging to learn something new.

Mickey

[Guest daveojo]

Dave_Wheeler: If you look on the SID page you will see what boards are needed, I built mine on Veroboard as I didn't want to wait for PCB's but you will need 1*core and 1*SID PCB. If you get them from Smash he can also do a pre-programmed PIC at a good price. The PIC 18F452 is the 'Brain' and MIOS is the equivelent to an operating system.

Okay. Ive checked out smashes site. So it looks like what I need is the core kit and the sid kit. The only other thing then that Im sure I need is an lcd. Is there a kit?

1) So I'd need to assemble these modules and then attach them together, yes?

2) Then attach an lcd? Is this easy to do?

3) I then need to get this apparatus to "talk" to my pc, yes? How on earth do I go about doing that? ???

4) Im guessing (tell me where Im going wrong) that the core module enables the parameters of the sid chip to be controlled via midi and that the computer programming is what assigns specific midi channels to functions. Yesno?

5) How do you enable the editing of these newly assigned midi channels via hardware? Do you need other modules?

goyousalukis: Another user posted a link to something that you might be interested in. I think it was some C64 software you loaded and then controlled the C64 via a serial port on the PC. I will look for it and post it if I can find it.

Ive seen something similar to this. Its a c64 cartidge with (possibly) a usb connection attached. Then you use a piece of software. Honestly though, if I wanted a setup like this without any hardware controls I'd just stick with quantum64, my vst sidchip emulator. 8)

Mickey Sadler: I have found that most people with college degrees try to make easy things hard.

I think that you misinterpreted what I said. What I meant to imply was that I'm not a complete moron (I hope)... I should be able to work this out.

(By the way my education is in no way related to engineering or electronics. ;))

You're in dublin, ohio? What a fine coincidence! :)

[goyousalukis]

Okay. Ive checked out smashes site. So it looks like what I need is the core kit and the sid kit. The only other thing then that Im sure I need is an lcd. Is there a kit?

You don't have to have an LCD. The bare minimum is just a Core and A Sid Module. There is no kit for the LCDs, you just buy the size and style you want. Here's an example for one on ebay:

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=26206&item=3842391981&rd=1&ssPageName=WD1V

You will want at least a 20x2 size one if you get one.

3) I then need to get this apparatus to "talk" to my pc, yes? How on earth do I go about doing that?

Once the MbSid is built, you can play the sid(s) with any midi keyboard. Or play it with any Midi computer program. If you want to modify the sounds, you hook the midi out of your computer to the MbSid's midi-in, and then use Thorsten's JSynthLib program to edit the patches. You will probably want to buy at least one bankstick - as this lets you store 128 patches at once.

4) Im guessing (tell me where Im going wrong) that the core module enables the parameters of the sid chip to be controlled via midi and that the computer programming is what assigns specific midi channels to functions. Yesno?

Each Sid is assigned its own midichannel, and it will respond to control changes on that midichannel. If you have more than one, you can assign them to the same channel, or different channels. You won't need to do any computer programming Thorsten has done it all for us. You just build the module and play. There are also a bunch of example patches that TK has created to show how to make sounds.

Justin

[iceberg]

[quote name=goyousalukis

Each Sid is assigned its own midichannel, and it will respond to control changes on that midichannel. If you have more than one, you can assign them to the same channel, or different channels. You won't need to do any computer programming Thorsten has done it all for us. You just build the module and play. There are also a bunch of example patches that TK has created to show how to make sounds.

Justin

[goyousalukis]

Yes, the LCD does make everything easier. Especially troubleshooting. There is a way to change the midichannel via a sysex message:

  f) F0 00 00 7E 46 <device-number> 0D 02 00 <channel> F7

     Change the MIDI channel

So you don't have to reprogram the pic. Just send the sysex message.

Justin

[Guest daveojo]

Okay, this is sounding a little easier.

So I can just pick up the two module kits that I want and fit an lcd to them? Zero programming?

Is putting the kit together easy? Keeping in mind that I dont know my ass from my elbow when it comes to electronics. I can solder pretty well but I dont know the names of parts or what they do or how they should work in sequence.

I think that for now I'll steer slear of the harware interface and just programme the sounds through software and save the resulting patches. So I'd need a bankstick...

What else will I need apart from:

sidchip

control and sid module kits

lcd screen

software editor

bank stick

or is that it?

[Mickey_Sadler]

daveojo wrote:

You're in dublin, ohio? What a fine coincidence!

Yep, with all that that implies. St. Patrick's day is celebrated with parades, shamrocks painted on the centerline of the street, etc. etc. and if you are caught not wearing green you are "arrested" and held in "jail" until bailed out (all moneys to charities). Lots of Irish street names, subdivision names, etc.

The comment about "so that's what it is" was just a little leg pulling. Although, as I explained, even someone with a masters in the field sometimes tries to make things too hard and I have not been able to figure out why.

Mickey

[goyousalukis]

So I can just pick up the two module kits that I want and fit an lcd to them? Zero programming?

To clarify - When I said no programming, I meant you don't have to write any code. The pic does need to be programmed with the bootstrap loader. For this, you either need to make the JDM programmer, or if you buy the PIC from SmashTv along with the kits, he will program it for you.

Is putting the kit together easy? Keeping in mind that I dont know my ass from my elbow when it comes to electronics. I can solder pretty well but I dont know the names of parts or what they do or how they should work in sequence.

Yes, the kit is pretty easy to put together. If you print out the schematics, you can line up the parts numbers with the PCB and figure out what they are. For instance IC3 is a voltage regulator. If you don't know what a voltage regulator looks like, go to http://avi.dezines.com/mbhp/info.html and click on the core module. SmashTV has made an excellent visual guide to each component. Hold the mouse over any item, and it will show you what it is. The key is to take your time and make sure each solder joint is perfect. Take a look at the solder joints on a professionally made pcb, and try to get yours to look the same. You could also go to RadioShack and buy a small vectorboard and practice soldering some wires to it.

Justin

[Guest daveojo]

Dont get me wrong I own when it comes to soldering.

I just dont understand the whys and wherefores....

So, the list that I have in my previous post, is that everything I'll need or is there more stuff? I didnt understand too much in your last post. Dont feel that you dont have to dumb things down to an absolute minimum. If you could, that would rock. :)

Im thinking now that I'll just go ahead and order the kits and see how I progress. It's extremely daunting though when faced with the whole prospect...

[goyousalukis]

What else will I need apart from:

sidchip

control and sid module kits

lcd screen

software editor

bank stick

or is that it?

You will also need a power supply.  If you still have an old C64 power supply you can use that, but you need to buy some more parts to build it. Here is a link to the schematic: http://www.ucapps.de/mbhp/mbhp_4xsid_c64_psu_optimized.pdf

Or you can use a "wall-wart" type powersupply that delivers at least 12V .

You will also need midi-sockets.

You also need a multimeter. This is to measure voltages before putting in chips. You can also use it to check for bad solder joints. A digital multimeter is best, but you can get by with a cheap analog type too.

Hope this helps.

Justin

[Jurbo]

Daveojo, you just spoke out my thoughts when you said you'd order the kits and see it from there. That's the attitude I'm building mine with, and so far I've been able to realize all I've tried. It only takes some (blind) faith - so get it going, you're in for a very interesting project with great support from a lot of helpful people. :)

[Guest daveojo]

That's great. Thanks for all the help guys.

You can be sure that you'll hear how I'm progressing!