MIOS DPS/Effects?

[iceberg]

So Im gathering all the stuff to build my 4xMIDIboxSID and I am thinking I want effects too. So Im going to outline my plan and ask for suggestions. Im not any good at designing circuits so Im hoping this sparks an intrest if it is even feasabel.

So 4xMBSID is going to have 8 channels (pair of channesls for each module), I want to have individual outs, plus a master combined out with levels for each channel. Pretty simple that's just an 8 channel mono mixer, you can get a schematic for that in a Radio Shack hobby guide easy.

Befoer the mixer however, I want to add in a seperate effects unit for each module, some common effects taht would be useful: reverb, chorus, delay, phaser, flanger. My idea was that it might be possible to have a single 8 channel DSP that could be controled by a core module so that the mbSid has 5 core modules. This way you could control the effects by midi as well as encoders.

The problem I have with a rack mount dsp, is that you have to manualy switch between channels you are editing the effects on, there are not knobs for the effects on each channel. I would like to be able to have individual knobs on each of the 8 channels, and a wet/dry control for teh individual outs so you can control the ammount of effects send to the individual outs in case there is a need for additional effect or compression on the individual channels later on.

Is this even feasable, and is anyone willig to help me figure out how to do it? I only know the basics of electronics, but for something like this Im willing to learn as much as needed as long as the information can be attained from a library or on the net, I cant afford a project and an abundance of books both.

With the sid modules, and the FM Module that is comming soon and a DSP/effects like this, you could build a unit that would just crus all those expensive grove stations out there. I'm only begining to realise the potention of the midibox, and I thank EVERYONE here.

[goyousalukis]

So 4xMBSID is going to have 8 channels (pair of channesls for each module),

Just to clarify - each Sid Module only has 1 output, so a 4xMBSID only has 4 channels.

Justin

[moebius]

Is this even feasable, and is anyone willig to help me figure out how to do it?

Answer is simply: NO :p Rather have a look at the Miss Parker: http://www.axoris.be/index.html

I only know the basics of electronics, but for something like this Im willing to learn as much as needed as long as the information can be attained from a library or on the net, I cant afford a project and an abundance of books both.

Well, the problem is that this isn't simply a matter of electronics. Yes, I think anything you need to know is available - there are no big mysteries in DSP. But, are you any good at programming? How's your math, then? My friends studying computer technology have their basic DSP courses at 3rd year of their studies, after completing engineering math,  C++ and embedded system design courses.. How deep are you willing to dive into this?!

And then again. Maybe you should have a look at your DSP's manual MIDI section ;O

Bye, Moebius

[Sephult]

I agree with moebius!

There would be alot of programming to do. It would probably be more feasable to use a design such as the missparker or some other developed project.

The chameleon dsp rack seems to me like a fun device to tinker with, if you want to mess with dsp effects. However they cost quite a bit, and you still would have to know more about programming.

You could probably just buy some outboard efx units for the same price and time it would cost you to make your own.

Gut some efx boxes and hardwire them in your midibox, buy some digital pots and replace the hardware knobs and make it midi controllable if it isn't already ;D

[sil909]

http://www.gweep.net/~shifty/death/

can be run using midi interface, using the EZKIT lite ADSP21xx

from Analog Devices.  I jsut picked one up for $50 on EBay.

the ezkit lite provides the supporting hardware to run effects.  and you can get sample DSP's from Analog Devices.  I am thinking of getting some pcbs made ( similar to the EZKIT lite boards) to support my 4 other ADSP-2160s.

Any one else interested in getting some pcb's?

[moebius]

I am thinking of getting some pcbs made ( similar to the EZKIT lite boards) to support my 4 other ADSP-2160s.

Any one else interested in getting some pcb's?

If you can clone EZKIT, sure ;)

Bye, Moebius

[DrBunsen]

A rack that might work for you is the Digitech Studio Quad, or the later Quad 4 (which I have).  It has four ins and four outs, and you can run up to four different effects, with very flexible routing between the ins, the effects, and the outs.

You can also assign seven parameters per effect to MIDI controllers.  So one of these and a MIDIbox controller would be pretty powerful.

[arumblack]

Good suggestion Dr.Bunsen. It could even be gutted , put in the same box with the sid , and add another core, runnig mb64e and add the controls to the sid panel

to control the effects.... great, if you like the effects it has.

[iceberg]

Maybe I am missing it on the site, but the Miss Parker doesnt seem to have documented schematics.

[moebius]

Hi,

http://www.axoris.be/MissParkerDetails.htm

Schematics, gerber files can be found from there.

Bye, Moebius

[iceberg]

A rack that might work for you is the Digitech Studio Quad, or the later Quad 4 (which I have).  It has four ins and four outs, and you can run up to four different effects, with very flexible routing between the ins, the effects, and the outs.

You can also assign seven parameters per effect to MIDI controllers.  So one of these and a MIDIbox controller would be pretty powerful.

This seems to have been discontinued and at the moment there are non on ebay in the US. How many effects can you assign to a single channel? Im looking at having chorus, flange and distortion on at least one channel. Some times I use phaser insted of flange, but I get some good industrial sounds

[iceberg]

Another solution was suggested and Im looking into weather it will actualy work or not. Since I have the Emu E5000 Ultra, it was suggested that I just buy and install an RFX-32 and the option 4 in and 8 out boards.

I have to download the docs for the rfx-32 and see if I can get multiple dsps on a single channels in real time and then figure out a place to get one real cheap. Or sell mine and buy an E4xt which has the RFX-32 already in it.

If anyone here is familiar with this unit and cares to commen it would be appriciated. I know I could then use a midibox64 to control the effects on the E500U.

Thanks

[AndrewMartens]

I just thought that I would bring your attention to the PIC Polywhatsit, initially designed by EPE Magazine in December 2001 - http://www.epemag.wimborne.co.uk/projects2001.html

It's a PIC-based 8-bit effects unit that does echo, reverb, delay, flange, phasing, vibrato, and a crude pitch shift up/down.  I have a PDF of the article here, and ordered a set of PCBs from them (along with a copy of that backissue).  It sounds like it will be a crude-but-usable device - just the sound I'm looking for.

I'm hoping to eventually adapt the design to run under MIOS, possibly even using the Core board (their design uses almost all of the 33 I/O lines on the 16F877).  After all, the 18F452 gives us a lot more processing power than the 16F877 (which is what they used in their design).  As to how well it works, I'll post the PDF and some sound samples once I've received the board and put it together.  If it's junk, I won't bother MIOS-ifying it.  If it turns out to be "good enough", then you can bet I'll try to put together some code that will run under MIOS.

Assuming, of course, that I can finish my Midibox SID, design & build a Midibox PSG (using the YM2149F and AY-3-891x).  Then after this I'm thinking about a crude 4-bit sampler, and possibly a synth engine that runs on a PIC...

[pilo]

yeaahhh this pic stuff seems to be a very interesting project!!!!! where can we find schematic and sourcecode?

[Lall]

Hi all,

Indeed, the Miss Parker and certainly the Miss Parker Plus can help in here  :)

On our website, we have some demo files available  of a mono-SID post-processed with the beast.

Here is what the AL3201 can do alone with Chorus/Room1:

dry - http://www.axoris.be/MissParkerPlus/demo/Chorus_Room1-SID-off.mp3

wet - http://www.axoris.be/MissParkerPlus/demo/Chorus_Room1-SID-on.mp3

Here is what the AL3101+AL3201 combination can do:

Phaser on the AL3101 and Hall2 on the AL3201:

dry - http://www.axoris.be/MissParkerPlus/demo/Phaser_Hall2-SID-off.mp3

wet - http://www.axoris.be/MissParkerPlus/demo/Phaser_Hall2-SID-on.mp3

Phaser on the AL3101 and Plate1 on the AL3201:

dry - http://www.axoris.be/MissParkerPlus/demo/Phaser_Plate1-SID-off.mp3

wet - http://www.axoris.be/MissParkerPlus/demo/Phaser_Plate1-SID-on.mp3

Some other demo files but not on a SID can be found from:

http://www.axoris.be/MissParkerPlus.htm and

http://www.axoris.be/Effect_Resources.htm

The AL3101 is actually very much suited for EQ-like filtering, compression, distortion, ... while the AL3201 is more suited for reverb, chorus, ... The combination of both is actually quite interesting. I think it could be feasible to control these DSP from a PIC even though we've chosen for the EZ-USB in Miss Parker. The Miss Parker manager is able to cope with any HW device as communication is made through libraries loaded at run-time so the whole tool suite related to Miss Parker could be reused normally...

Voila, voila, have fun with the demos  ;)

Best regards,

Lall

[iceberg]

Nice, the Miss Parker+ definatly is feasable. For a MidiBoxSIDx4 I would need one for each channel. That and the status page states that the midi implimentation has not yet been added, is this information out of date or is it expected soon? The reason I ask is that the only time computers ever get used in my music is to record. That plus Im moving to a totaly FreeBSD and IRIX computer cluster with only an old mac laptop for portable use, but it's an old 3400c and not suited for music.

[AndrewMartens]

yeaahhh this pic stuff seems to be a very interesting project!!!!! where can we find schematic and sourcecode?

The schematic is unfortunately only available by getting a back-issue from them (3 or 4 UKP, I think - PCBs are 7 UKP).  I tracked down some kindly soul on an audio forum somewhere who mentioned that he had it.  Hopefully this weekend I'll be able to post it (at least temporarily).  It's a hefty 7 MB download, so I may re-type the text (it's just scanned images), crop out the pictures and post it as an zip archive.

Alas, I'm leaving tomorrow AM to operate a computer system that controls a sewer-inspecting sonar platform (whee), so I won't be able to do this for a week or so.

Source is available here: ftp://ftp.epemag.wimborne.co.uk/pub/PICS/polywhatsit/

[DrBunsen]

How many effects can you assign to a single channel?

Up to four.  You can merge and split channels before, between, and after each effect too.  For example, inputs 1 and 2 going into a stereo pong delay, 3 into a chorus, 4 into a flange, then all of them into a stereo reverb.  You can dedicate the box's whole processing power to one full-size effect for better quality, or split it amongst any combination of half- and quarter-sized effects.  It's incredibly flexible.  I'm amazed they didn't sell better.

And with input and output levels and wet/dry mix for each effect assigned to a MIDI controller, you can use it as a 4-input mixer.

It's a 1U rack, and only about four inches deep.  The front panel is fairly clear.  One of the first MIDIboxen I plan to build is a 1U knob board to sit underneath it.

. great, if you like the effects it has.  

 

I love them.  Lush, rich and varied.  No distortions though, and only the Quad Four has compression (along with a vocoder and a 15 second loop sampler).

There are three different models, Studio Quad v1 and v2 (can be upgraded) and the Quad Four (no "Studio").

[moebius]

yeaahhh this pic stuff seems to be a very interesting project!!!!! where can we find schematic and sourcecode?

Maybe where you live has as comprehensive library system as we Finns do - I went to the library, waited 5 minutes, as magazine was searched from the archive, and then photocopied the article ;)

Bye, Moebius

[pilo]

Maybe where you live has as comprehensive library system as we Finns do - I went to the library, waited 5 minutes, as magazine was searched from the archive, and then photocopied the article

I'm in france, and not a big city..I don't think I can find EPE here... I have to order it I think (but it will take time to receive it!!!!). I already looked at the source code :) seems a very interesting stuff, I can't wait for the schematic!

Does any body try it yet? Andrew?

[AndrewMartens]

I'm in france, and not a big city..I don't think I can find EPE here... I have to order it I think (but it will take time to receive it!!!!). I already looked at the source code :) seems a very interesting stuff, I can't wait for the schematic!

Does any body try it yet? Andrew?

I have the magazine article, but I ordered some PCBs (I really hate hand-wiring stuff).  Those will probably take a few weeks or so.  To be honest, I barely have enough time to finish up my SIDs before getting to my PSG system.  Once they do arrive, though, I will no doubt have it wired up and tested within about a week of getting the PCBs.  Then I'll put some sound samples online.

However, Moebius is pretty quick on the draw here, and it sounds like he may just wire one up on perfboard or something :)

I'll keep you posted - this is one of about 6 or 7 MBHP audio-related projects that I have planned:  Midibox SID, Midibox PSG, Midibox POKEY, Midibox FX (the one in question), 4BS (4-bit sampler) and one that uses a PIC as a synth itself.  Not in any particular order, of course...

[moebius]

However, Moebius is pretty quick on the draw here, and it sounds like he may just wire one up on perfboard or something :)

Hey, there are PCB foil patterns on the article - I can etch my own boards ;)

And now - as I checked thru my component boxes, I found out that besides of having pic, I also have SRAM needed and compatible DAC (although dac is SMD one - got to do an adapter) Grr- the hardest part is getting the pic programmed..

So, lets see, Moebius

[Lall]

I would need one for each channel

Actually, the board is equipped with connector giving access to the other IOs of the chip so with a "small" extra board, you could add AD/DA to have four stereo channels in total.

The AL3101 is actually able to manage up to 8 mono channels. We use 2 for our standard stereo IO and 2 others for connecting the AL3201.

There has been a post on this forum with the PCB of a board with Alesis DAC or ADC (I don't remember) as the one we're using. I think these PCBs could be reused to extend the IO capabilities...

I think that adding more channels would require no modification in the firmware, you would only have to create DSP application using all your input channels...

That and the status page states that the midi implimentation has not yet been added, is this information out of date or is it expected soon?

It is unfortunately up to date. As I had no external pressure on that one and no real need personlly, I mainly concentrated on the PC software side lately. Moreover, I have some program size issues so I will need to optimize some parts if I want to add MIDI unless I kick out the USB support of course  ;).

But adding MIDI is still in the plan. It would be a very nice "tool" to trigger ADSRs, ... and why not making synthesis  ;D

Best regards,

Lall

[pilo]

any news about the pic/dsp stuff? ;)

[moebius]

It is unfortunately up to date. As I had no external pressure on that one and no real need personally, I mainly concentrated on the PC software side lately.

Strange.. Can't you make Miss Parker as a DX plug (or whatever you like), then? Oh, those CAN be controlled with midi these days..

Nah, Sorry.

Can't control parameters be handled with midi messages, with only different HW interface handlers (USB vs. MIDI UART) compiled in?

Bye, Moebius