LC troubles

[tgp]

i've got a few questions about the LC that i never could find in the forums or ucapps while digging around. sorry if they have been answered before!....

1. how many core/LC module setups can i run in a row? i see that axel did a 3x LC, so im curious to what the max is.

2. what is the maximum number of buttons, switches, faders, ect allowed for the LC. and can i bypass the limitations by adding another core then having the max x2, another core max x3, ect?

i want 24 motorfaders, but i want more buttons per channel and hotkey buttons than axel did. thats why i'm wondering.

3. lcd issues.... are you limited by 2x40 or is that the minimum? i could have sworn i saw someone with a graphical lcd on a midibox project, or am i wrong?

4.  check out this touch sensetive button:

http://www.qprox.com/products/qtouch.php

basic schematic

schematic with programable features, jumpers, and an LED

would this work to send an on/off data out just like a normal button? and since the chip could host an LED on board, i could use an LED, and not have to take up an out of my DOUT right?

5. AOUT with the LC... this is a far stretch, but what kind of problems are you looking at if trying to use an analogue meter instead of a DOUT led meter? has it been done before? this is probably a far stretch.

thanks for any help! :)

Taylor

[Screaming_Rabbit]

Hey Taylor

1.) The number of 8-Fader modules is defined by your host software. I don't know of a software handling more than 4 units (32 faders).

2.) The functions you can lay on buttons is defined by the LC-protocol of the host software

3.) somebody else has to answer this. I think, you can use any display you can drive by MIOS, as long as you have a driver or you write one

4.) I think touch sensitive buttons are not a step ahead. I love to have a "click" for activating a function by a button. While mixing, you often put a finger on a button long before you need it and as soon as the time for activation comes, you finally press the button. With touch sensitive buttons you propably often activate a function without wanting it.

5.) There is no audio (digital nor analog) going through your LC. If you want an analog meter, you have to connect it to an analog out of your DA coverter. The LEDs in the dBFS meters of the LC are activated by MIDI messages from your host software.

Greets, Roger

[tgp]

Roger,

thanks for the help! to calify myself a bit more:

2. I know i have to specify the function via mios and my host program, i was just wondering what the max number of buttons, led's, ect is for each LC Core module. ex- can i have 200 buttons? will i have to spread them out over 3 x LC modules or can i not have anymore than 30 (ex.) no matter how i spread them out?

4. This is a mixing board, so you bring up a good point, however. these would only trigger my hotkeys for everyday uses. example- opening preference windows, popping up filename paramaters per track, assinging plugins to a track, ect. dig? :)

do you think i can use that chipset though? will the out be the same as a normal button?

5.  i gotcha now! thanks! is there anything i can do to spit the midi messages of level to an analogue out/vu meter instead of led's though?

thanks again!

taylor

[Screaming_Rabbit]

Hello Taylor

2.) As far as I know, there are max. 128 Digital INs and 128 OUTs per core which MIOS can handle. But the problem will be, when you specify your controller as an LC- or Mackie-Clone in your host, the host software won't let you configure any additional functions because the functions are already specified in the protocol (please anybody correct me, if I got this wrong). I'm working with Sequoia V8 which let's me connect a maximum of 4 hardware controllers. So what I could do, is: Connect 3 LCs (1 master and 2 extensions) to have a 24 fader setup. For the 4th controller I can connect a MidiBox128 (for example) and adjust additional functions in "generic mode"

4.) Sorry... my experience as a sound engineer tells me: Don't do it  ;)... but I don't have enough electronic background to give you any advice about it would work or not  :-X

5.) I'm shure there is a possibility to "recalculate" this. I'll work on this next. Stick to this topic: http://69.56.171.55/~midibox/forum/index.php?topic=3179.0

Greets, Roger

[tgp]

Roger,

2.  I'm going to be controlling Logic Pro 7 though. i know with Pro Tools you can only emulate a few brands out there, and it wont let you assign new paramters of that particular board that whats 'allready there' that your emulating.

But with Logic i'm pretty sure you can use the "Learn" function and assign buttons to do functions. I never heard there was a limit on how much you can assign, maybe you can assign every changeable function?

4.  This is going to be my Senior Thesis project for my Sound Design degree. trying to come up with new ideas. so bear with me here on traditional layout ;)

5.  Checking that out right now. Thanks.

i'll be looking up the max inputs on logic 7's assignable parameters, if anyone knows, please chime in.

Thanks again Roger.

Taylor

[Steven_C]

reguarding 4)... look at  www.ucapps.de/midibox_lc/midibox_lc_enc_ts.pdf to see how you can use a standard Din module for a touch sensor input, with a simple resistor modification. I'm not sure if you need to change something in the application code if you want to do this with DIN pins other than the standard touch sensor pins. Just open each relevant sections of the application code in MPlab IDE to read the notes TK has written within the application code to verify.

Here is a diagram on connecting one of the available types of graphical LCD... www.ucapps.de/mbhp/mbhp_glcd0.pdf Once again you need to get into the application code in MPlab to enable graphic LCD before you turn the code into a .syx and load it into the PIC. Default setup is for character LCD.

If you want some inspiration for new ideas, try to find a pic of Michael Stavrou's new control surface. (though I don't like the curved meter bridge) Another new concept is a control surface that is projected onto a flat white surface, that is scanned somehow (similar method as a touch screen?) so that you can touch buttons, sliders etc, and the laser projection updates the position of sliders, status of buttons, etc, as you touch them!

Good luck with your thesis.

...Steve

[tgp]

thanks for the continued support (man do i need it!  ;D )

ok, from the looks of it, i can run up to 4 dinX4's off of one core, and as Roger said, he thought 128 digital in's and 128 digital outs for my pots and LED's.

big question here is if i use mutiple Core's like how Axel used LCx3, is the max number of in's and out scaleable or is it all dependant on the last PIC before being sent out thru midi?

in other words, does a LCx3 setup capable of using 384 (128*3) pots and LED's or is it all limited to the "main" Core's limitations?

i just need to know the limitations of MIOS right now, so i can plan my board around it. dont need any suprises thats going to cut my idea of using a number of buttons in third ya know  :-\

hey, thanks for that link, never heard of that guy till now. vaguely remember that board but i'm bookmarking the page right now. pretty nice design. check out this pic, pretty beautiful, jog wheel probably CNC'd out of a nice sized block of aluminum:

[Steven_C]

Glad you found pics of Stav's board. I didin't notice that nice jogwheel until now! The board also has nice matrixing options right in front as well.

OK, back to LC. Each of axel's LC's use a separate midiport. There is no daisy chaining of cores going on, as each LC is recognised as a separate device by the host software (Logic Audio). (Also makes it easier to deal with! But it also chews up 3 whole midiports! But this is unavoidable...)

What software do you want to control? Logic? (the best for LC!)

[tgp]

sweet! even better, i thought they all had to be chained together. i remember axel had that midisport in there, totally forgot about that.

and yes, i'll be using Logic7 pro.

do you have any idea if the touch sensetive buttons shown above will work though?

also, to be looking at something to mess around with later. what are size constraints for the LCD? i heard that using a graphical LCD sucked alot of resources from the PIC, to an extent that it might be able to support a number of colors/size.

can i have a whole Core dedicated to driving the LCD?

what are size limitations to the LCD, and how do i find out about graphical icons/programming/ect for it? got any links off the top of your head?

thanks!

taylor

[Screaming_Rabbit]

can i have a whole Core dedicated to driving the LCD?

You could go from your main core with the buttons and the faders etc. out of the MIDI Through to your second core with the LCD. The MIDI Out of the core with the LCD doesn't have to be connected. - I think this should work  ???

Greets, Roger

[Steven_C]

That's a good idea, Roger,

do you have any idea if the touch sensetive buttons shown above will work though?

I don't know, why not just try it and see what happens... but why not investigate the method I already mentioned? It is much simpler...

[tgp]

im a bit confused about that touch sensetive pdf. care to explain how its different?

i was wanting to go that kind of touch sensetive button, cause its not a 'click' tactile interface and i can put an led for a lighting effect on the same board.

dunno.

[Steven_C]

look at the pink dots at the RH end of the DIN board http://www.ucapps.de/midibox_lc/midibox_lc_enc_ts.pdf They are the touch inputs. You simply take out the 10k resistors from the board and mount the 47k resistors instead.

[cheater]

Hey tgp,

the touch sensitive buttons could be interesting for drum triggers, or poly aftertouch keyboards.

Wonder if you could take a normal PC keyboard and fit it with those things - could be interesting as a drum trigger thingie, coupled with the midibox.

I know Cubase can scroll the project at different speeds - don't know about Logic. Perhaps it would be possible to use those buttons for this? The harder you press, the faster you wind through the song.

Question of my own: does the LC eat up one whole interface? Or just a MIDI channel?

Is it really impossible to remap the controller in Protools? (that'd be a downer for me, I was thinking of using it at the studio sometime in the future...)

[Screaming_Rabbit]

Question of my own: does the LC eat up one whole interface? Or just a MIDI channel?

... 1 Channel per unit (8 faders)

Is it really impossible to remap the controller in Protools? (that'd be a downer for me, I was thinking of using it at the studio sometime in the future...)

... I think I read somewhere that there is a Motormix and/or HUI application running on MIOS (search the forum and read the LC notes)

Problem: If you have read the "future incompatibilities" notes contained in the ProTools installer CD (V6.4)... HUI, Motormix and others won't be supported in the future  >:(

I'm even not shure about those fader boxes are still supported in the current 6.7 Version. (We're still working with 6.4 since in 6.7 is a bug which makes it impossible to work with the Native Instruments PlugIns)

... so before someone even should think about supporting those bandits from digidesign with their way too expensive TDM system (at least it runs pretty stable), he should first analyse their marketing strategies.

Greets, Roger

[Steven_C]

If you have read the "future incompatibilities" notes contained in the ProTools installer CD (V6.4)... HUI, Motormix and others won't be supported in the future I'm even not shure about those fader boxes are still supported in the current 6.7 Version

Oh Crap! These large audio electronics/software companies really make it hard for people without lots of money. First crApple, now Avid/Digidesign. Really, really crappy  >:( I wonder if manufacturers like Mackie will make firmware updates to work around digidesign's plans to shut them out?)

on another note...

Question of my own: does the LC eat up one whole interface? Or just a MIDI channel?

... 1 Channel per unit (8 faders)

Err... not quite... refer to the 9th post in this very thread...

Each of axel's LC's use a separate midiport

The LC protocol is really midi bandwidth hungry, I'm sorry.

[Screaming_Rabbit]

Quote

Question of my own: does the LC eat up one whole interface? Or just a MIDI channel?

Quote

... 1 Channel per unit (8 faders)

Err... not quite... refer to the 9th post in this very thread...

Quote

Each of axel's LC's use a separate midiport

The LC protocol is really midi bandwidth hungry, I'm sorry.

Yepp! Sorry I meant one port  ::)

[Screaming_Rabbit]

I have to make an appology to Digidesign:

... I think I read somewhere that there is a Motormix and/or HUI application running on MIOS (search the forum and read the LC notes)

Problem: If you have read the "future incompatibilities" notes contained in the ProTools installer CD (V6.4)... HUI, Motormix and others won't be supported in the future 

I'm even not shure about those fader boxes are still supported in the current 6.7 Version. (We're still working with 6.4 since in 6.7 is a bug which makes it impossible to work with the Native Instruments PlugIns)

... so before someone even should think about supporting those bandits from digidesign with their way too expensive TDM system (at least it runs pretty stable), he should first analyse their marketing strategies.

Greets, Roger

... I just cleard up with Digidesign UK:

Digidesign is not about to shut down the HUI protocol.  Since Digidesign is further developing their own communication protocol, they might need GUI cycles/power. The result of this could be that the HUI capability can be compromised making it impossible on heavy sessions to get the responsiveness you would require.

I hope this information helps to give clearness to the "HUI Death" rumours.

Greets, Roger

[shed]

well as far as i can tell from this page http://www.protools.com/compato/osx/mbox/midi.cfm protools 6.7 suports cm and hui

http://69.56.171.55/~midibox/forum/index.php?topic=2853.0 has some stuff on the mios cm emulation witch seems to be the way to go with for pro tools stuff, and some spec stuff on the cm protocall is here http://www.cmlabs.net/MotorMix%20V%201.2%20Developer%20pkg3.pdf

there is some interesting stuff here on controlling protools with a generic controller, however as the JL Cooper CS10 isnt on the properly suported list of controllers anymore it seems a bit dated

http://www.soundonsound.com/sos/may04/articles/protoolsnotes.htm

http://akwww.digidesign.com/support/docs/MIDI_Control_Surfaces_6.1.pdf