Gearing up for a box

[bodimix]

So I've been doing some lurking  8) for quite a while, and this project looks great. I am excited about building my own Midibox.  I have some questions about features that will dictate my design and what parts I end up buying. I was hoping someone could help me out :

1. Motorized faders:

If I'm not mistaken, these type of faders will "read" location info from the host app, and then move themselves into position based on that data? For instance, in Logic or FlStudio I have 8 different motor faders linked to 8 different volume controls in software... when I open my project, the faders on my box should move into place accoring to the software?

2. Ive seen Motor Faders, but not Motor Pans (or knobs). Do they also sell motorized knobs?

3. I've had a look at the MIOS commands, and it looks like there is avid control of LCD output. I was wondering if there is any way to have my host app (say Logic or FlStudio) send data to my box, and then have it output on the LCD? I know this is highly unlikely but it would be cool. For instance to send the name of a MIDI track in FlStudio or Logic to my box's LCD when I select it/

4. I've done several searches for wireless here and havent found much in the way of a solution. I've done some searching online and while many have discosed plans for a wireless MIDI device, there arent any schematics or details. Does anyone know of a "low price" way to make a wireless Box? Building a wireless Midibox has so many advantages... being able to "break away" from the computer to compose music (just sit on a sofa and program a beat) or perform in a live situation (walk around the club, even dance while structuring a track in live via track mute/unmute. There arent any commercially available wireless solutions (except for some bulky add on box selling for a few hundered bucks!)

With the price of Wireless gamepads selling on avarge for $8 on Ebay, finding a way to hack and integrate the RF transmitter into a Box would be dirt cheap and ideal. Who knows, there may be a way to direct output from the PIC to the PCB of the gamepad as opposed to a serial/MIDI port?  ???

5. Almost done!  ;)  Is it necessary to have a soddering gun and tools? If I order the PCB Core kit from Smash, do the parts just bend into place or do I need to sodder everything to the PCB?

6. One of my ideas for a box would be to integrate "finger triggers" basically mini MPC style rubber pads that I can play with my fingers to make beats. I know about Piezo's but because of the small size of the device I'm thinking that the shock from hitting it will cause false triggers on the other pads. I've also looked into FRS (Force Resistor Sensor) which looks ideal. They are small, relatively cheap, and more accurate. Has anyone used these? Know where to buy material that is similar to the nice rubber pads on the Akai MPC series drum machines?

7. Power... AC vs. Battery vs. USB. Has anyone made a design which uses battery power? Will the new USB module under developement be able to provide power over the USB? (I think I've read somewhere that it can reliably up to 5v?)

If you can answer one or all of the questions I would be very grateful, thanks!  :D

[Screaming_Rabbit]

Hi Summary

1. Yes. - Your 8 faders will represent ( in MididBox LC) the first 8 faders of your host. By switches you can change banks, in either way (left and right) and you have the next 8 faders or you toggle by "channel" and your fader set moves by one fader.

2. Yes, but as far as I know, nobody tested them yet. - Just use encoders

3. Yes you can. In MidiBox LC, the hosts mixer channel names are displayed by default

4. Don't know, but... forget it. I had a Nady Midi Wireless and it was crap

5. You have to solder... use a 20-25 W iron

6. search the forum for "drum trigger", somebody already did this with piezos (by the way: they just work fine) and I think they are cheaper

7. Battery? Depends on what you're imlementing (power consumption). If you're planning to do that, order a "Low power" PIC (there is also a topic about that, search for "Low power"

Greets, Roger

[rlang]

7. USB= 100 mA initial, 500 mA max at 5 volts

Rob

[arumblack]

The problem with wireless is that it's really hard to do accurate timing. Say a data packet is lost, it must either be resent or ignored. Midi isn't ethernet, it can't just reorder the data after it's recieved, it needs to get it all, in order and on time. though with a high enough transmission rate,it should be possible. anyway, its really not as easy as it would seem at first thought.

[bodimix]

I understand the importance of error checking, and how delicate MIDI is in general. But I had figured if a gamepad could be wireless then MIDI could as well (since gaming requires such low latency and accurate responce <<you dont see Chun-Li doing random kicks and punches when using a wireless>>).

[arumblack]

This is true, but The amount of data for the dozen or so buttons is minimal. A midi drum pattern probably has more data, especially at 180 BPM ( though I have seen some intense button pushing in the heat of battle). Then add in your synth lines and CC's , you use lots of those right?

Any way, I'm not exactly sure how a gamepad works, but i would guess the buttons send a binary code, maybe on bit to identify the controller(player 1 or 2) and 3-4 more to identify the button(3 bits allows for 8, 4 for 16) and a bit to indicate on or off.so this is maybe a note on/off message for midi, any analog sticks would need to be converted todigital, I would imagine this to be about equivilent to a midi cc.

so if you only wanted to play 16 notes and use 2 cc's, maybe it would work. Actually it could work even better than that. I believe kenton is working on a wireless midi transmitter/reciever (maybe it's out already?) but knowing them it won't be cheap. here it is http://www.kentonuk.com/products/midistream.shtml it seems to be one way, expensive, and you cant use two in close proximity (they all use the same frequency)

but it can be done. I don't know how much hype is in that ad on kentons page , or the "Reviews" on the link (like they would put a bad one on there).

Anyway, i guess I just made my whole post pointless......

[bodimix]

Heh, nah, proving your point to be pointless along the way is a sign of a good post hehe - joke-

Funny thing, the link you sent has a feature with a good friend of mine (onyx) doing a demo with the Kenton...small world.

The thing is just so bulky tho, seems unnecessary ??? not to mention the price (equally bulky  :( )

You would think that part of the reason to go wireless is also to minimize the intrusiveness of the device. What it loses in terms of being "tethered", it makes up in size.

As far a the Joystick thing goes...  it's always possible that the software or drivers have some sort of error correction built in... perhaps it will drop a hanged note (or punch rather) if the stream is intrupted, or make a guesstimate by comparing the headers of the bit to the butten pushed, I dunno. But whats intresting is using the joystick in a game that is musical and heavily time based where latency and accuracy count. A game like Dance Dance Revolution is controlled with the joystick much like it's a midi controller - Same with Parrapa the Rappa game(s). The analoug joysticks are quite nice, and the buttons are pressure sensitive (jump higher! press harder!).

At the end of the day, the gaming industry is soaked with money, and wisely alot goes into R&D. And because of the critical mass of gamers buying new stuff all the time, you get highly advanced products that are cheap in relation to other fields. Though there are many muscians out there, I can say with confidence that there are exponetially more gamers. Which is why you can buy a sleek looking wireless joystick for around $6 when it's bloated MIDI counterpart adds a couple of 0's.  And it seems only just recently, companies have seen the demand for various controllers. Look back only 4 to 5 years or so and there were so little options (Phatboy and Kenton Control Freak were like the only two knob toys around). We can thank amature audio apps like Reason and Fruityloops for helping to open the market up some more and create more demand. In fact, I can see someone like Oxygen or Evolution releasing a wireless offering for cheap for the gamer cum musician crowd. 

I've seen some mention on various websites of people gutting the gamepads, using the inputs for performance (MIDI triggers), but like I had mentioned, no one shares the schematics or the DIY (one woman charges $250 for a seminar you have to attend where she discloses the info). In my case, I can see gutting a gamepad and transfering it to a custom enclosure / switching the buttons out with ease.  But I really want to use MIOS, have access to the LCD, etc. So it's give and take...

Who knows, I might just pick up one of these cheap gamepads and have a look inside, if only for the sake of science... maybe someone will be able to identify a possible solution to routing output from the PIC into the gamepad PCB. Then we can write up some rumblepad features into MIOS.

>:( :o ;) :D

[arumblack]

maybe someone will be able to identify a possible solution to routing output from the PIC into the gamepad PCB. Then we can write up some rumblepad features into MIOS.

>:( :o ;) :D

Yes! I can see this for those late nightheadphone situations...Feel tha Bass!

Seriously though, If you've got a controller and the time go for it. I'm sure you could get it to trigger some note on/offs, in fact I'm now having visions of playing drum beats on a playstation controller. ( X for kick, O for snare, L and R pads for hat's and cymbals....)if you just sent some minimal data to the midibox, and let it decode and generate midi data... somehow get the controller to replace some buttons or encoders. Sorry i don't have any solid answers, really just thinking aloud. If you have a logic analyzer, you could determine the output of the reciever for each button, and then write mios code to convert that data to your desired midi note or cc or whatever. I know this isn't exactly like dancing around on stage with a wireless midibox strapped to your arm, but it could still be cool.

and i just thought, i bet the range of those controllers isnt too great.

[bodimix]

The range on the particular "cheap" model (Logitech Wingman Pro) is rated at 20-30 feet. Which isn't going to allow too much freedom, but it would allow you to stray a little during a live set, maybe go to the bar and get some drinks, or dance like a fool for a little bit. My idea is to re-fit an old calculator (circa 1970-1985) to control Abelton Live functions. The solid, industrial style / designs of old calculators are the BEST. Often I try to find a reason to buy some and use them simply because they look so cool... but who needs a calculator these days??? Using one as a MIDI "remote"  seems like a great excuse to use one.  A nice red, green, or blue backlit LCD would replace the old LED's perfectly, and then I can rewire the buttons to mute/unmute tracks, change scenes, etc.  Maybe add an analog joystick (for x/y)  and map three or four buttons to keys (to mess with / play a simple bassline or lead or filter(s) / trigger random samples).

So I figure if I can make the device wireless as well it would be a super little Live remote thingy to gig with.  i am certain I can do it w/ just the gamepad (because Live an FlStudio both accept gamepad as a MIDI controller), but I really want to utilize the LCD (so I can see which tracks are muted/unmuted, or what the current scene is).

tell me you wouldent want to stick a SID in this: http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=413&item=6167193247&rd=1&ssPageName=WDVW#ebayphotohosting

If I have any luck merging the gamepad / RF technology w/ midibox I'll let you know.

[stryd_one]

Good luck! :)

[arumblack]

Don't forgrt you need a way to get feedback to the lcd, or risk gettig out of sync with the host application, if you used a mouse click or keycomand to unmute a track you muted with the wireless box for example. a gamepad with rumble feature must have some way to trigger the rumble, so that would be the one to look at.

Good luck!