Traktor 3 controller...

[Velaskin]

Hi there,

I'm a DJ with "musical tendencies" ... which actually means, that I do life remixing to the extend, that the remix is almost a new song.

I'm running Traktor and for now I control it with a midi-keyboard. This is of course not a very good solution. I need access to almost all misc functions of Traktor concerning looping (with the ability of jumping to a loop/cue point directly) and general track control.

The optimum would be, to play with Traktor and the tracks kinda like playing an intrument. (Yep, I know how that sounds  ;))

Right now I'm planning to build a decent midi-controller.

I know that some of you have already done some really nice controllers. But well, almost all of them try to mimic the screen layout of Traktor (2.x). I was almost there with my design, but then realized, that the whole thing would get way too big or the knobs and buttons too small. And well, Traktor 3 is coming and stuffing all the controls for 4 (!) decks into a reasonable sized box would be pretty hard. Not to mention the cost for all those encoders/pots and buttons.

Maybe I should add, that I use a notebook along with a flight case. The latter is a modified turntable case. It contains all the electric stuff (audio interface, power adapters, a 2nd harddrive, etc.) completely wired up. When I start, I just have to set my laptop on this thing, attach a couple of cables and I'm ready to go.

I think the box is already pretty big for some situations, so I wouldn't want to build a second box containing the midi-controls.

To make long story short, the available space for the controller would be 19" wide and about 16 cm in height. For that I would have to modify my current flight case, but that's a different story.  ;D

Anyways I found myself playing with a cover plate design program, moving all the controls around, just to get a pretty stuffed thingy. And that's for only 2 decks. With that I wouldn't have a clue, what to do with the controls for 2 more decks...

So I came to a new idea:

How about a controller for just one deck, along with the main controls (master volume, master bpm, headphone controls, etc.).

And this one deck is accompanied by four buttons, which give immediate access to four patches/banks. With that one could switch the controls to the deck you want  ;D

But that's not all:

If you would press let's say button 1 & 2 you would control deck 1 & 2 at the same time (for starting up two tracks at once a.e.).

My questions for you now:

1) what do you think of this idea?

2) the patch/bank switching should be really fast. Real time so to say. Can this be done with the core? Or do I need one or more banksticks for that? If that's the case, are those banksticks fast enough for that? I've read, that those banksticks are rather slow due to the data protocol they're interfaced with...

3) For the last part of my idea, the core/MIOS would have to be able to output more than one midi command. Let's say, you're controling deck 1 & 2. "Play" from deck 1 is midi event #81 (just an example) and "play" from deck 2 is midi event #82. In case of having both patches active (due to patch buttons 1 & 2 are pressed), the MIOS would have to output 2 midi events in a row by pressing just one button (#81 AND #82).

I assume, that this is not a standard function available? How much effort would you think it to program that feature?

My own assembler skills are pretty old. I've done some 6809 and 68000 programming ages ago ...  ::)

Greetings,

John

[Velaskin]

Hi there,

here's an update to my thoughts:  ;)

For the ones who haven't read my earlier longish post:

I'm planning a Traktor 3.x controller. Traktor 3 will have 4 (!) decks and aside of the EQ 4 different filters/effects ... so the controller for this would be either big and expensive if one would try to mimic the software's layout, or too spartanic to be really usefull.

Additionally I need to fit all dials and buttons on a plate of 483 x 160 mm (19" wide and a bit shorter than 4 HE). This is to have it fitting into my existing case in front of the laptop.

Right now I'm with the following:

The very deck controls are there for all of the 4 decks (play, cue-play, etc.)

Then there's a section with the controls for tempo/key, looping and cueing.

And finally there's a section with 5 dials and some buttons for the filters/effects and EQs.

The deck controls don't need to be switched. They are just there.

Then you have 4 buttons for the decks, which control the tempo/looping/cueing section.

These buttons work addtionally as some sort of "group selection" for the filters/EQs.

Whith some more selection buttons you decide which filter/effect/EQ you are going to tweak.

That should be intuitive and fast enough to really play with the decks.

Furthermore you stay below the 128 DIN "limit". So the box is more affordable and you don't need two cores.

Right now even a LCD along with 8 menu buttons fits on the plate  ;D

So... now anyone having some comments on this? ;)

BTW: I'll post a drawing of the design when I'm done with moving things around and thinking about all this ;D

Greetings,

John

[drin]

Hi John. I'm 60% completed my T3 controller. I went a very different route than you. One Play/Pause/Cue button area for ALL decks, separate EQ and FX areas and faders (one 'group' per deck), one loop area for all 4, switches to select the appropriate deck and a master crossfader. My controller fits into a case the size of a Heath Xone:92 mixer (12" wide by 13" long). Since I plan on operating T3 in Xone:92 mode anyway it made the most sense to me.

-drin

[Velaskin]

Hi drin ;)

Your approach sounds nice.

Especially when I imagine that you might try to mimic the xone:92 layout ;D

What kind of music are you playing?

And will you post images of your progress?

Greetings,

John

[n0ne]

Hi,

I'm also working on something like that. But I decided to make it standard for 2 decks, with possibilities to siwtch between decks too, this way you always have contact with 2 decks at any time, wich makes more sence to me since you'll want to mix things in most cases 1 deck wouldn't be sufficient in my eyes.

Also, if I had to start over I would use rotary encoders instead of pots. 1. because the ledrings look freakin sweet, and you can also control much more virtual pots. With one pot you can also control multiple things in traktor, but you don't have the endless turning you have with encoders. So consider this.

Good luck, can't wait to finish my own, and am curious about your projects!

Jeroen.

[drin]

What kind of music are you playing?

And will you post images of your progress?

Hi John. I play mostly house music (chicago, prog, tech), although I occasionally spin downtempo sets and some techno too.

I'll post pics once the project is complete. At the moment I'm choosing knobs for my pots... :)

-drin

[Velaskin]

@drin: I do some industrial/noise. That's basicly something you might also know as "dark techno".

For that I need simultaneous (play)control over the 4 decks. I often work with loops and cues.

To keep the controls on the panel as less as possible (costs, panel size (see above) and the "128-DIN-limit") I had to decide which controls I need most. So it came down to the "deck's drive contols" to be very important. Than the controls for looping, tempo and cueing and finally the controls for the EQ and the filters.

Traktor 2 his this "soft takeover" feature for the pots and sliders... but for some stupid reason this "soft takeover" has its probs when the controler number changes along with the position of the controlled item. It woks brilliant tho if you just have to take care of an occasional change of a control with the mouse. But well, I found this feature not very helpfull for me. I don't know if NI has improved this feature in Traktor 3 but anyway, all the pots will actually be encoders. Unfortunately the x-fader has to be an encoder too... but on the other hand, I don't scratch. So the x-fader being a real slider isn't that important to me ;)

Since Traktor doesn't return any midi-commands, I don't see much use in LED-rings. Tho they do look cool ;)

Greetings,

John

[drin]

@drin: I do some industrial/noise. That's basicly something you might also know as "dark techno".

Hi Velaskin., I don't know where you are, but I know what industrial music is. :)

Unfortunately the x-fader has to be an encoder too...

Why? The newest MB64e supports pots, encoders and crossfaders. No need to limit yourself! It's even in the ChangeLog on http://www.ucapps.de. To quote:

"Although MIDIbox64E has been designed for rotary encoders, it can now also handle with up to 64 pots/faders or up to 8 motorfaders."

-drin

[kris]

it would be interesting to see a layout

as i havent even seen traktor 3 yet

but i just fineshed my 2 deck traktor layout ill post photos soon

again just the controls i need

[n0ne]

...

Since Traktor doesn't return any midi-commands, I don't see much use in LED-rings. Tho they do look cool ;)

...

If I am correct: you can still use the ledrings since they give the status of up to 128 virtual pots, wich you control with the encoders...

Jeroen.

[Velaskin]

@drin:

Sorry, I didn't mean to be "teacheous"  ;)

I'm in Germany btw.

And yes, I know that I can connect pots and faders along with encoders and all.

I don't really see it as a limit tho to implement the x-fader as an encoder. As I said, I don't do any scratching.

Then again, during testing it might come down to put in a real fader. We will see  8)

@kris:

I will post the layout as soon as I think it's kinda finished. I still catch myself moving things around  ;D

@n0ne:

Yes, you're right.

But then: wouldn't the information get lost during bank change? Even if I don't touch the virtual dials on screen with the mouse in between?

Or to phrase it better:

If I have an encoder with a led ring. With a bank change I can control let's say the filter amount and the trebles on the EQ.

If I have the filter amount on 0%, the led ring will reflect that. Than I change to the EQ treble and dial in a +3dB. More than half of the leds will light up.

Would the bank change back to the filter amount really switch the led ring off (due to the 0% amount)?

Greetings,

John

[drin]

@drin:

Sorry, I didn't mean to be "teacheous"  ;)

Hi John. Please, no need to apologize. You weren't "teacheous" at all. :)

-drin

[Velaskin]

Hiyas  ;D

Well, I was a bit busy, but here are my actual thoughts on the Traktor 3 controler design:

I took a closer look at the Xone 92 mixer which is virtually included in Traktor 3. I can only say "WOW!!!" ;D

Anyways I'm kinda like back to my first design, but with different thoughts about it:

One panel will be 3 HE in height and 19" wide. That should make sure, that the whole thingy fits into almost all cases (even in mine ;D).

This panel will have one core under the hood and controls for one deck (drive controls, tempo/key, cueing, looping, a "jog dial"), a fader, which is an encoder along with the 2 auto-fade buttons, and finally the deck's level and a couple of controls (encoders and buttons) for the stuff like the EQ, filter, effects.

The latter part consists of 5 enoders and some buttons which take care of all the functions of one unit (EQ or a filter or an effect).

With some bank-change-buttons you can decide, which part of the mixer you'd like to control.

With some other bank-change-buttons you can switch the whole panel to deck A, B, C, or D.

With this design the controler is somewhat small and more or less reasonable in matters of costs. And you can control the whole Traktor 3 with it...

But: if you build up two of those controlers you can do anything!

Keep in mind that a "standard issue human being" has two hands. So you might want to control two different parts of your decks at the same time.

Let's say you would like to tweak the EQ and the delay of deck A: You would switch both panels to deck A. The first will be set for EQ and the second to control the delay.

Or you would like to have the deck controls for C and D: well than make it so ;D

How does that sound?

And well, you can have even four panels hooked up at once and have all the deck-controls at hand and up to four sets of controls for EQ, filter, effects, etc.

Here's is a picture of the raw panel design:

Cheers,

John

[drin]

OK, here it is. After much design, weeks of brainstorming and hours of testing, here's our T3 controller design. We kept as close to Traktor's Xone:92 emulation as possible, although we'll have overlays for the Nuo mixer model as well.

[img width=884 height=750]http://i8.photobucket.com/albums/a27/drinpsmith/Kombine2.jpg

I apologize if it's too big, but I wanted people to be able to make out the controls and comment on the design. Any comments are appreciated.

Thanks!

-drin

[Velaskin]

Nice work drin  :)

I would miss something tho:

- the buttons for Cue-Set and Cue-Delete (or did I oversee them?)

- a dial/slider for tempo and key (in case you need to change it quickly)

- buttons for Snap and Lock on Looping and Cueing

- some buttons on the effect section. Some effects need some buttons along with the dials/encoders.

I think, my preliminary panel layout doesn't quite explain itself... ;D

So here's a version with some text on the buttons:

The buttons below the LCD are the ones for handling the MIOS. 4 for the MIOS itself and 4 more for some special functions which are MIOS related (like turning the encoder acceleration on and off).

This is just in case you need to change some settings "quick and dirty".

The buttons below the encoders in the top right... well, they cannot really be named, because their very function changes along with the bank-select buttons left to them.

Then, in the Loop-Section:

M = loop move

L = loop length

. = loop length (no snap)

Loop = "go to loop"

Loop count = sets the count of a loop to be played

M, L, Loop and Loop count are "shift-keys" for the encoder in the middle (or the main-dial. That I haven't decided yet).

In the Temp-Section:

Pitch is a "shift-key" for the main-dial (the big one on the right). Here you can quickly dial in another key/tempo.

The "+" and "-" button right to the Sync-button are the pitch/key benders.

In the CUE-Section:

CUE-DIAL is a "shift-key" for the main dial (once again). Here you can quickly jump to a cue-point. This is basicly for editing. For playing you have the numbered buttons below, where you can jump directly to a certain point. That's for "life re-arranging" ;D

Cheers,

John

[drin]

Nice work drin  :)

Thanks.

I would miss something tho:

- the buttons for Cue-Set and Cue-Delete (or did I oversee them?)

Nope. They're not there. My style is that I set Cue points before I climb into the booth - I don't do it live. That makes Cue-Set and Cue-Delete irrelevant for me.

- a dial/slider for tempo and key (in case you need to change it quickly)

There are two buttons for tempo and key up and down. I'm happy using them as they are - how quickly do you need to change tempo, after all? :)

- buttons for Snap and Lock on Looping and Cueing

Again, things that are set before I go into the booth. If I need to set them in realtime I use the screen - that's what it's for.

- some buttons on the effect section. Some effects need some buttons along with the dials/encoders.

Other than the screenshots on NI's website I haven't seen the app yet, but I've talked to some of the moderators who tell me there are NO buttons to go with the knobs. Effects are knob-controlled only.

This mixer is intended to capture the regular functionality of Traktor - I understand that some people do things differently, but this is the consensus we came to after weeks of discussion with T3 users, moderators and beta-testers.

Thanks!

-drin