Suggestions for best affordable reasonable quality 16 track recording hardware

[asbak]

Been hunting around for a budget but reasonable quality recording solution in order to obtain at least 16 channel input, preferably via Firewire (so that it can also be used on the road with a laptop). There's a lot of kit out there but for the money, some of the best ones seem to be the Tascam FW1804 and the M-Audio Firewire 18/14.

http://www.tascam.de/en/fw-1804.html

http://www.m-audio.com/products/en_us/FireWire1814-main.html

If one adds a Behringer ADA8000 AD/DA converter to either, you have an extra 8 analog inputs which can be connected via ADAT.

http://www.behringer.com/ADA8000/index.cfm?lang=ENG

Total cost would be around 560 pounds (+- U$900) in the UK but with searching around may be a bit less if one is prepared to go via eBay or similar. Does anyone have experience using any of these units, are they worth considering or would one be better off spending more on something better?

Cheers

[Jidis]

Hi Asbak!

Don't use firewire enough here to know the M-Audio or Tascam. I've always been sort of wary of it for important "uninterrupted throughput" applications (but not like I am with USB). I've heard some things about certain FW interfaces polling the bus, or some other sort of brief processing, behind the heavy audio streaming, which has caused spikes and such for a few people, but that may well be old info from earlier chipsets or FW drivers. Also, make absolutely sure either of them isn't known to drop off the host unexpectedly or ever go "undetected". That's actually my main fear of the newer "non-PCI" formats for audio. My multi-tracking needs are pretty modest (less than 15 simultaneous In's, usually more like 8-12). On mixing I'm usually only a few, but they may be spread between the 3 banks of my 2408mk3.

I'll toss in a vote for that Behringer. :) I grabbed one a while back, and haven't had anything to gripe about. The pre's IMHO, sounded better than my other cheap junk (MackieVLZ,Alesis12R,Symetrix528), and the only thing I noticed much of an improvement with, was a modified Symetrix SX-202, and the sounds were "different", so the ADA may have even been better on certain things (didn't get much listening in). It definitely won't hinder most people, and ADAT converters are always welcomed these days. They give you lots of options on cheap computer cards, plus since they're bi-directional, you can get a whole pile of returns going back to your tracking room for headphones or whatever.

If I were shopping right now, and needed 16 analogs, I'd almost be likely to go with (2) of the ADA's and the cheapest multi-ADAT card I could get (with a good driver). I really only use the two control room outs on my interface, for my mains, and all the other i/o is in the tracking room via ADAT. 

If you go FW, be sure to get some good online comments pertaining to specifically what you're trying to do. You have to keep in mind that a lot of the FW and USB interfaces are bought and used by more musicians, where the throughput requirements may not be quite so heavy. With plans to stream 16 audio tracks at a decent rate/res., make sure you get somewhere with people who've used it for that. I've seen plenty of FW audio boxes listed on large systems, so I know you can do it, but I'm still sort of "old timey" about the internal cards. For good multi-analog DAW examples, the Nuendo hardware forum has some pretty heavy hitters. Some of their system profiles make me feel like I'm on a 386DX.

With whichever brand or model you pick, you obviously should do what it takes to get genuine "honest" firsthand user feedback on it. Register for whatever user groups or forums they may have, and read some complaints by actual users and see how, or if, they were ultimately resolved. I'm really starting to hate the info you'll get in most of the magazines these days, mainly due to a recent realization that a certain "unnamed" party, who holds a permanent monthly reservation on the most  expensive (back cover) advertising slot, across ALL major recording and electronic music magazines, seems to have a public image with the media and music stores, which it has done very little to deserve. It goes way beyond that, but I'll keep it out of here for now, and just try to make a few "unbiased", "impartial" shopping suggestions: Just make sure you get something which isn't known to "fail" or "disappear" in any way, and which doesn't use "lower quality parts" like cheap displays and pots, or poorly ventilated cases, which might be slightly more susceptible to "heat problems", further jeopardizing the lower quality components. Also, try to look into whether or not the company has "frequent returns for specific failures", possibly from "rushed production", or too many "corners cut in component cost or design". And try to find reports of anyone receiving multiple "defective units", or "poorly assembled" ones, or ones which may be "suspected" of being "refurbs", or "unsuccessful repairs", or "high failure rates" on recently purchased, out-of-warranty units, with very "few moving parts", which began "failing" or "malfunctioning", while merely "sitting in a rack". Also, make sure you get something from a manufacturer who is genuinely bi-platform, not like a Mac company who writes some "barely adequate drivers" and stamps Windows logos on all their stuff, while refusing to research or conform to any of the standard PC OS, audio, and plug protocols, or who stops developing after the first couple driver builds seem to somewhat  work, and then "blatantly ignores" reports of any hardware or software specific incompatibility which many users appear to be suffering, while they scramble to prepare for the next line of "prematurely released" hardware, which has already been announced and advertised, or worse yet, discovers (or is informed  of) some ridiculous, "convoluted workarounds or boot sequences" which "some" have reported "may sometimes work", so there's no further need of any programming effort, or who will persist in draining the last drop of blood from any previously written driver code or software, rather than "rewriting" anything to make it "properly comply" with modern systems. And be careful with companies who won't officially claim "support" or "compatibility" with current OS revisions or software, or with some of the "common chipsets or hardware" frequently found in modern Windows DAW's, and who will "blame" those manufacturers or developers, and recommend against their use, or insist that they won't work, in an effort to "avoid driver issues" or any further overdue tweaks to the driver code, while they move on to the "next product". And watch out for places with an "insufficient support staff", or techs who "know little to nothing about Windows PC's", or who occasionally answer support questions with insulting "direct quotes from their poorly compiled FAQ", or with responses which prove they never actually read the customer's question or details. And try to get a product which was "properly tested" on a "substantial" amount of "test systems" and "configurations". Oh yeah, and make sure you get something from a place which has "multiple phone lines", and who actually "responds to most emails or letters". And look for places who don't allocate more resources to "advertising", "flashy packaging", or their "feature sets", than they do to "development & support". Then, the only other thing I can think of is to go with a manufacturer who has a decent "active presence" in their own "user community", and who's staff is well regarded as being "knowledgeable, friendly, & easy to contact", by most everyone who's needed their help.

I could probably come up with a couple brands I frequently hear good stuff about in the Nuendo forums, but unfortunately, right off the top of my head, I can't really think of any particular manufacturer that I would recommend "not" buying anything from. ;D

Good Luck

George   

[Jidis]

FWIW-

Hanging in the Nuendo hardware forum a minute ago, a few are now raving about the RME fireface and MADI interfaces (both pretty far up the ladder price-wise). BrianT and Bullmoon both have nice setups (BrianT ran that ridiculous Paris rig in Nashville years ago, with the four giant monitors integrated into that black and oak workstation, in someone's magazine ad).

I guess that answers the question about reliability or uninterrupted throughput. ;D

Makes me wish I had that Fireface800. May be something to save for. :'(

George 

[asbak]

Thanks a million for the input George. I read up a little on the RME's and they did seem appealing but like you said, a little pricey.

There seems to be a belief amongst a number of guys who appeared to know what they were talking about that Firewire was a better designed protocol than USB and that despite it's slightly lower throughput (400 megabit vs USB 2.0 Hi-Speed 480 megabit) it should handle audio better.

[Jidis]

I've heard that too.

I think as long as you avoid clicks and junk you're fine, and it sounds like it's a "non-issue" now.

Good Luck!

[js]

Just another bit of input...

Make sure to make a serch on problems where you combine the soundcard in mid withe the brand of you laptop. I reasently bought a m-audio Firewire Audiophile. It worked very well for a few minutes then the drivers locked up, midi stopped and the only thing I could do was to restart.Searching the internet i found that others with Asus (mine is an Asus) notebooks had similar problems... I didn´t manageto get it workeing proberly and now i´ve sent it back waiting to get a refund so I can buy a USB devise instead.

As for an advise for a sound card, I havn´t tried it, but the specs look good to me and the price event better:

http://www.thomann.de/artikel-174788.html?iwid=12&sn=4bf8b60500738d849c46cc723fe7e882

T was thinkeng about buying this one, but I guress the portability is too much an issue for me so im going for the m-audio Fast Track pro instead... Somehow I have a better feeling about Usb devices for pc´s instead of firewire. Love firewire on a mac though.

Goodluck Shopping!!

js

[moebius]

Go for USB!

[NorthernLightX]

About the troughput: USB's 480 Mbit is theoretical, where the 400 Mbit is actually acievable with firewire. Also I've heard some stories that claim USB is far less stable. There are some things in the core design of USB that make it less useful for (high-end) audio applications than firewire, which was designed for audio/video production. I myself would choose firewire, if I would have to. There is only one thing better than both, and that is a dedicated PCI card as an interface to your break-out box or rackunit.

Just my €0,02

[moebius]

USB= Or which standard? Please watch the video again.

IEEE-1394, or firewire or .....

I can tell Apples from Oranges.

M

P.S. So I'm saying: The spec for firewire didn't allow "Fuck ups" or USB to happen. See it Yourself on Your favourite platform,

[Jidis]

others with Asus (mine is an Asus) notebooks had similar problems...<snipped> get a refund so I can buy a USB devise instead.

I think you see that in general, with products which lacked proper "testing", or have poorly written drivers, so I wouldn't be too quick to blame it on any particular standard. I'm also guessing that USB2.0, or most of the current FW flavors, have more than enough throughput for most multi-tracking needs, but if the developers don't do their homework, you'll end up with those nasty "host specific peculiarities", or stuff that only happens when you get the right load on it. This, of course, takes us back to my vendetta against MOTU. They've actually managed to create unique "bugs" which span several different types of interface connection. In the right places, you'll hear stories of devices failing to be detected at boot, or disappearing during use, with their parallel, USB, and occasionally even PCI cards or their attached interfaces. I've even wondered if some disgruntled ex-employee left some weird "virus" type crap on their systems, which they can't detect, and it's being compiled into everything they develop. Then again, could just be a common symptom of poor Windows driver programming. ;D

Take Care   

[moebius]

Sorry to hijack the tread.. but:

Apples or Oranges, Jidis?

Any complaints on Apple harware?

[stryd_one]

Searching the internet i found that others with Asus (mine is an Asus) notebooks had similar problems...

Same MB Chipsets? VIA maybe?

[moebius]

You are on Intel platform. Intel, If I can guess, then?

"VIA" is funny. "viallinen" means defunct to us Finns. "VIAllinen" might refer to a Computer with VIA "shit set" oops, Chip set. Maybe things have changed.

M

[Jidis]

Apples or Oranges, Jidis?

Any complaints on Apple harware?

I hope you're joking on that Moebius. Getting hard to tell these days, and I thought I was weird ;D.

no apple no

bad frown apple

apple angry bad no

George

[stryd_one]

with VIA "shit set" oops, Chip set. Maybe things have changed.

Nope, still the same.... More trouble than they're worth, those things.