Non-C64 PSU / Beginner Q's

[glitched]

First of all, let me say that after reading this board for the past few weeks, you are all very patient people for putting up with constant noobness.  Although Electronics isn't exactly quantum mechanics, it can be daunting for a beginner because, not only do you have to use your brain, but you also have to have the manual dexterity to wield a soldering iron and manipulate small parts! 

Anyway, some stats:

Name: doesn't matter

Electronics experience: very little.  I have modified my MC-202 to death and put a couple mods on my x0xb0x (not made by me)

Project: midibox SID (8580)

Other Details: 1X CORE kit, 1X DIN kit, 1X SID kit, all purchased from SmashTV (my order is "in progress"--thanks!).  No original C64 PSU.

Ok, so here's the story:

I have been looking at c0nsumer's site for the last few days and noticed that he used a 12V, 1A wall transformer and mated it with a PCB mount power jack.  Now, here are the questions:

1) For the "non-optimized" PSU plans, is 12V enough to power a CORE, SID, DIN, and LCD  (easier to say "control surface A" I guess)?  He seems to be powering six modules, so I guess that's a yes.

    1a)  If I'm not using a C64 PSU, I don't have to make a separate circuit to make this thing work, right?  In other words, assuming everything's done correctly, I should be able to just solder, check voltages etc., and plug in the power.

    1b)  The CORE PCB from Smash TV uses those SIL headers for J1.  I would like to do the PCB mount thing, but I don't think the pins are compatible.  Any suggestions?  How do you mount your power jack?  I guess you have to mount it on a protoboard or something, along with a switch.

2) I plan on getting a standard 2X16 LCD.  Ribbon cables: are there any that have been pre-made that I can just plug into the CORE board and LCD?  I'm guessing this is a "no" because of the possible non-standard pin orders on some LCDs.

    2a) I haven't looked yet, but I'm guessing there are pre-made 2x8 IDE-type ribbon cables, to interface from J10 on the CORE to J10 on SID, yes?

Uh...I think that's it for now...more when I actually get the stuff and start building.

Thanks, in advance!

-d

glitched.org

[midiboxxer]

Hi an welcome,

to question 1) I can say 12V are O.K. But it doesn´t only depents on the voltage (12V), the PSU should have enought power so it can afford enough current. When you´ll take this PSU you have to stuff a 9V voltage regulator on the sid board (for a 8580 chip) and a 5V voltage regulator on the coreboard. You should have a look at the datasheet of the 5V regulator for the max input voltage, but I think 12V should be O.K.

1B) There are powerjacks which have a thread so you could fix it in your case.

2) You shoud have a datasheet and compare it with the cores specs.

2a) Yes and no, I´ve testet those cables, some of them causes problems in my midibox, the connectors didn´t fit everytime.

Greetz

Markus

[dubka]

hello mate,

first of all - I'm no nameity on this subject - as anyone round here will tell you, but...

you just clip IDC connectors onto your ribbon cable (no soldering required) that mate with the SIL or DIL headers.  Start by getting 16ribbon cable and pull off the ones you don't need for other ports.  i.e. 5 pin DIL would be 10cables.

2 x 20 is the standard display size for the step A sid box.

Good luck!

Martin

[midiboxxer]

2 x 20 is the standard display size for the step A sid box.

You have to change the main.asm for a 2x16 display. But thats no problem.

;; number of visible menu items on LCD

;; use:  4 for 2x16 displays

;;      5 for 2x20 displays

;;      10 for 2x40 displays

#define CS_MENU_DISPLAYED_ITEMS 5

see also:

http://www.ucapps.de/howto_tools_mpasm.html

Best regards

Markus

[NorthernLightX]

1) For the "non-optimized" PSU plans, is 12V enough to power a CORE, SID, DIN, and LCD (easier to say "control surface A" I guess)? He seems to be powering six modules, so I guess that's a yes.

1a) If I'm not using a C64 PSU, I don't have to make a separate circuit to make this thing work, right? In other words, assuming everything's done correctly, I should be able to just solder, check voltages etc., and plug in the power.

1b) The CORE PCB from Smash TV uses those SIL headers for J1. I would like to do the PCB mount thing, but I don't think the pins are compatible. Any suggestions? How do you mount your power jack? I guess you have to mount it on a protoboard or something, along with a switch.

12V is very much enough. Keep in mind that the 5v regulator can get very hot if you put a backlit screen and a lot of leds in the box and let the 7805 regulate 12v to 5v for all of them. For a 8580 only project I'd choose a 10Vac tranformer, and if possible a separate 5v. If you want to run it all from a single transformet you can take a look at, and possibly modify, my own PSU design which you can find by looking through my old posts. PCB mount powerconnectors for Smash's boards do not exist as far as I know. If you really fancy a PCB mount connector you can put it on a piece of veroboard and solder wires to the core board. If you're making your Own PSU just place it on the same board as your PSU components go on.

2) I plan on getting a standard 2X16 LCD. Ribbon cables: are there any that have been pre-made that I can just plug into the CORE board and LCD? I'm guessing this is a "no" because of the possible non-standard pin orders on some LCDs.

2a) I haven't looked yet, but I'm guessing there are pre-made 2x8 IDE-type ribbon cables, to interface from J10 on the CORE to J10 on SID, yes?

You'll need to make all your cables yourself. If you plan to use SID V2 some pins of J15 are used for the CAN bus so you can't use a standard 2x8 flatcable.

Happy building!

@midiboxxer: you're describing a panel mount connector, not a PCB mount. I agree panel mount is much easier to use.

[glitched]

Ah, very good.  I'm starting to understand now.

Ok, so 12v may be overkill...but I want to use the single transformer.

12V is very much enough. Keep in mind that the 5v regulator can get very hot if you put a backlit screen and a lot of leds in the box and let the 7805 regulate 12v to 5v for all of them. For a 8580 only project I'd choose a 10Vac tranformer, and if possible a separate 5v.

  You're saying that 12v is more than enough, but to save the regulator from getting too hot, you recommend a separate 5v supply, yes?

Also, this panel mount part should work, do you agree?

panel mount dc plug.  [EDIT] Strike that.  This has a split tip.  If you find a panel mount 2.1 or 2.5 DC jack, let me know.

Ok, I understand that I'll have to make some cables using the appropriate cables and IDC connectors. 

If I want to use the connectors on a common LCD with a single row of 16 pins, do I mate them with SIL female or male headers?  Am I right in thinking that, if I'm using the IDC connectors, I'll need male SIL headers on the LCD part.  Is this a good idea or does using headers/connectors create problems when mounting the LCD (due to the length added by the connectors)?

By the way, a 2X20 LCD looks like a good idea to me.  I want to make this as painless as possible.

Thanks.

-d

[midiboxxer]

You're saying that 12v is more than enough, but to save the regulator from getting too hot, you recommend a separate 5v supply, yes?

-d

Also, this panel mount part should work, do you agree?

panel mount dc plug.  [EDIT] Strike that.  This has a split tip.  If you find a panel mount 2.1 or 2.5 DC jack, let me know.

-d

[NorthernLightX]

Ah, very good.  I'm starting to understand now.

Ok, so 12v may be overkill...but I want to use the single transformer. You're saying that 12v is more than enough, but to save the regulator from getting too hot, you recommend a separate 5v supply, yes?

A separate powersupply, or a powersupply which delivers 2 voltages. The latter can either be an external, or internal (transformers in the case so you still need only 1 powercable), but in both cases you'll probably be making it yourself. Toroid transformers give the cleanest power. A third option is to work with a voltage divider or power resistor. Have you found my PSU design? It uses power resistors to reduce the power in front of the lower voltage regulators.

Also, this panel mount part should work, do you agree?

panel mount dc plug.  [EDIT] Strike that.  This has a split tip.  If you find a panel mount 2.1 or 2.5 DC jack, let me know.

Any connector can work if mated withe the right PSU, it's your project, you decide what to use.

Ok, I understand that I'll have to make some cables using the appropriate cables and IDC connectors. 

If I want to use the connectors on a common LCD with a single row of 16 pins, do I mate them with SIL female or male headers?  Am I right in thinking that, if I'm using the IDC connectors, I'll need male SIL headers on the LCD part.  Is this a good idea or does using headers/connectors create problems when mounting the LCD (due to the length added by the connectors)?

By the way, a 2X20 LCD looks like a good idea to me.  I want to make this as painless as possible.

Thanks.

-d

I soldered a male SIL heared to my LCDs with a female SIL header to a cable, to be able to swap LCD's easily. When making the cable pay attention to the way the CAN bus is wired. I have no idea how crowded your box is going to be, and if the extra length is going to be a problem.

[glitched]

Thanks for your responses.  Things are making sense.

Northernlightx: I read some of your previous postings.  Is this the thread you were referencing?  If so, that's waaaay out of my league.  I really want to make this as minimal as possible.

And I'm sorry, but I'm not sure if I got a clear answer to my primary question: can I power everything from one transformer, letting the modules' regulators do all the work?  Does connection from J10 on the CORE give power to the SID?

[NorthernLightX]

Hi, I just noticed I made an error in a previous post, where I wrote J10 and meant J15, which is the LCD port. I'm not sure If J10 is a 100% pin-match with J2 of the SID board. Check the schematics, if they match, a ribbon cable will work. You only need 4 datawires though, and a 5v power supply wire.

If you want to keep things minimal: find yourself a C64 powerbrick and wire that up according to the available schematics. Powersupplies are about the simpelst electronics projects, so if you do not feel confident about adapting this schematic for yourself I can only advise you to use the C64 brick. Powering everything from a single wallwart is also an option but I think your 7805 (regulator on the core) will get very hot. Feel free to try though.

Cheers,  Alex.

[glitched]

Thanks once again.  I will see if I can get the C64 PSU from the same guy who gave me the SID.

In the meantime, I'll be purchasing a couple heatsinks for the regulators and see how that works out.

I'll be back to report!

-d

[gavgomad]

It's amazing how you find interesting information that you SHOULD have noticed originally and remembered for later....  ::)

Just discovering all the interesting tidbits about NortherLightX's PSU design, as I have been struggling with getting a good PSU to supply not only the SID and cores, but a BARRAGE of external VCFs....

A couple questions.... Apologies if I've missed anything dealt with in another thread....

Firstly, for NortherLightX.... Your "official" PSU thread seemed to fizzle awhile back.... What were your final thoughts on the design, and did you ever get a .brd file together? I would be MOST interested, as your design looks excellent!  ;)

Secondly, and more for the North American contingent who may have tried this supply.... Any suggested value substitutions? I seem to recall that fuse values may change etc., but not being a power supply expert myself, I thought I'd run it by the pros - or at least far more "with it" amateurs than myself!  ;)

Cheers and thanks!

Gav.

[NorthernLightX]

It's amazing how you find interesting information that you SHOULD have noticed originally and remembered for later....  ::)

Just discovering all the interesting tidbits about NortherLightX's PSU design, as I have been struggling with getting a good PSU to supply not only the SID and cores, but a BARRAGE of external VCFs....

A couple questions.... Apologies if I've missed anything dealt with in another thread....

Firstly, for NortherLightX.... Your "official" PSU thread seemed to fizzle awhile back.... What were your final thoughts on the design, and did you ever get a .brd file together? I would be MOST interested, as your design looks excellent!  ;)

Secondly, and more for the North American contingent who may have tried this supply.... Any suggested value substitutions? I seem to recall that fuse values may change etc., but not being a power supply expert myself, I thought I'd run it by the pros - or at least far more "with it" amateurs than myself!  ;)

Cheers and thanks!

Gav.

You only have to change the transformer and the fuse, but those are not part of the schematic anyway. I have the PSU running over here for a SID step A (minial control surface), but have not been able to test it with a huge load (extra LEDS, Cores, and SIDs). I think it works fine. The .brd file does of course exist, the pictures in the tread are made of it. I will add them to the tread tonight so you can fiddle with them.

A note on the VCF thing: CEM filters like +12v and -5v, so you'll have to add something that regulates the -5v.

Cheers,  Alex.

[gavgomad]

Thanks for the additional info! I'll keep my eyes peeled for the .brd!

I'm looking at using 8 SSM 2044s, seeing as though they seem to be relatively available at present, which are comfy on +/- 15 and +/-12V. Of course, there will be AOUT modules (likely one for each stereo voice), and I plan on using 4 SSM 2164 quad VCAs - one per stereo voice, for final VCA (L/R), and feedback VCA (L/R).

I think the 2044s aren't TOO hungry, so the 12V rails should be OK? I'll get my calculator.... ;-)

Still getting all the other goodies together.... I actually contemplated using my hi-end bench PSU (consists of a custom Plitron toroid from a Bryston amplifier, coupled with two Bryston regulator boards providing (presently) +/- 12V and +/- 15V, but there would still be the inevitable problem of getting the +5V and +9V without adding line noise or incinerating the regulators (although undocumented, I believe the voltage on the secondaries is upwards of 20-24V - should check this for sure), as well as size - the toroid is 4.5", and the two regulator boards are about 4"x4.5", each with their own chassis mounted rectifier, on which each board sits....

Details details.... ;-P

Thanks again for the help!

Gavin.

[glitched]

I'm sorry, I just need to re-focus this thread for one last bit of clarification. 

Are the following statements true?

1) I can use, say, a 12V 1A transformer to power both the CORE and SID boards along with a 2X20 LCD.

2) I can use a DC power jack with that wall wart and wire the pins directly to J1 on the CORE board.

3) Using Smash TV's boards, I will connect J10 from the CORE board to J2 on the SID board.

    3a) This will be the only connection I will need to make from the CORE board to the SID board in order to power and control the SID board. 

(Perhaps I am confusing +5V with the term "power supply".)

Thanks for your help, thus far.

-d

[NorthernLightX]

I'm sorry, I just need to re-focus this thread for one last bit of clarification. 

Are the following statements true?

1) I can use, say, a 12V 1A transformer to power both the CORE and SID boards along with a 2X20 LCD.

2) I can use a DC power jack with that wall wart and wire the pins directly to J1 on the CORE board.

3) Using Smash TV's boards, I will connect J10 from the CORE board to J2 on the SID board.

     3a) This will be the only connection I will need to make from the CORE board to the SID board in order to power and control the SID board. 

(Perhaps I am confusing +5V with the term "power supply".)

Thanks for your help, thus far.

-d

1) Yes, a single Cora and SID combo will probably work with 1A on 12v. Put a good heatsink on your 7805.

2) Yes, as long as you do not leave out any components from the schematic.

3) That's right.

3a) No, the SID board is powered by both 5v AND 9v for 8580/6582 SID or 5v AND 12v for 6581 SID. There is extensive information on the SID module page on uCapps, please read it again  ;)

Cheers,  Alex.

P.S. .BRD file of my PSU has been delayed a bit, probably this week (am redecorating the house, lotsa stuff boxed up right now, including my NAS).

[glitched]

Thanks, NorthernlightX and others.  You've been a great help.

[glitched]

I didn't want to open another thread, so I'll just use this one since it's along the same lines.

Is it ridiculous for one to think that he could use an older 230 watt computer power supply to power his CORE and SID modules?  The power supply gives +12V and +5V, which is nearly perfect.  Overkill?

I'm just thinking of alternatives to using wall warts or the C64 PSU.

[NorthernLightX]

I didn't want to open another thread, so I'll just use this one since it's along the same lines.

Is it ridiculous for one to think that he could use an older 230 watt computer power supply to power his CORE and SID modules?  The power supply gives +12V and +5V, which is nearly perfect.  Overkill?

I'm just thinking of alternatives to using wall warts or the C64 PSU.

Computer powersupplies (switching powersupplies the'ye called) give VERY noisy output, you'll hear it on the sound output of the SID. I wouldn't do it.

....I have some spare PCB's from my PSU project, if you're interested drop me a PM.