Core + LCD only Midibox LC as a display for Behringer BCF 2000

[alekzander]

Hi everyone,

I recently got a Behringer BCF 2000 really cheap off Ebay after

contemplating building a complete Midibox LC myself. In the end I

realized I do neither have the experience nor the time for

that. However, I miss the display and would really prefer to see what

I am doing without looking at the computer screen.

There have been quite a number of posts of people inquiring about

building a BCF 2000 display as a cut-down Midibox LC. Hardware-wise I

think it is quite clear how to proceed: build core, add LCD, add DOUT

for LED digits and another (maybe) for VU meters or a DIN for some

extra buttons. From what I understand the DIN/DOUT ports can be mapped

in software, so that it not necessary to connect the full number of boards

to just get the LEDs working.

I got a couple of questions before I get started.

Did anybody ever actually built a working BCF 2000 display unit?  From

reading TK's response in one of the threads, it seems that it should

work.

I would love to see pictures of finished products to see how people

packaged up the whole thing.

The main issue I see is to make the BCF 2000 and the Midibox look like

one logic control as Shed pointed out

(http://www.midibox.org/forum/index.php/topic,2941.0.html).  Afro88

writes that the BCF 2000 passes the sys-ex to control the display on

the thru-port

(http://www.midibox.org/forum/index.php/topic,7020.0.html). Does the

Midibox LC software rely on the initial hand-shaking with the DAW to

start displaying things?

Not hooking up the MIDI-Out from the Midibox LC to the Behringer would

prevent the Midibox LC from beeing seen by any DAW software. What to

do if I wanted to have a couple of extra buttons on the MIDIBox LC?

Thanks,

A.

PS: For fellow BCF 2000 owners: Is the following normal?

1) The rotary encoders feel like potentiometers and you have to turn

them quite a lot for example for adjusting pan position in Live.

2) The motor faders do not move very smoothly when replaying slow

fades.

PPS: The BCF 2000 threads I found

http://www.midibox.org/forum/index.php/topic,7020.0.html

http://www.midibox.org/forum/index.php/topic,12696.0.html

http://www.midibox.org/forum/index.php/topic,7520.0.html

http://www.midibox.org/forum/index.php/topic,2941.0.html

[stryd_one]

I recently got a Behringer BCF 2000 really cheap off Ebay after

contemplating building a complete Midibox LC myself. In the end I

realized I do neither have the experience nor the time for

that.

Hi mate, to be honest, if you don't have the time or experience (you don't need much experience, but time, yes) to build a pre-made app, then I think that a custom app such as this could be a bad idea, as it will almost surely take more time and experience.

[alekzander]

Hi mate, to be honest, if you don't have the time or experience (you don't need much experience, but time, yes) to build a pre-made app, then I think that a custom app such as this could be a bad idea, as it will almost surely take more time and experience.

Who is talking about a custom app? If I understand the comments in the very well

documented Midibox LC code correctly, the code is pretty flexible with respect to

hardware present; i.e., a core and one display would be the bare minimum. Switching

off motor faders, setting the number of shift registers to 0, disable LED_RINGS, METERS,

LEDDIGITS, insert ENC_EOT for all encoders can be done in setup_midibox_lc.asm.

After reading the source and the logic control manual a little bit more intensively I figured out some of the additional questions I had:

Adding some buttons for functions not available on the BCF 2000 would require adding

a single DIN module. The mapping shift register/pin to function can be done arbitrarily

in lc_io_table.inc. Ditto for LEDs.

The initial connection with the host does include sending a logic control surface serial. But there is no device id in the midi message as there is only one logic control surface per MIDI port. Since the Behringer provides just one MIDI in and one MIDI out port over USB, the messages from the Behringer and the Midibox LC cannot be distinguished.

If the DAW is really anal and gets upset about two host connection queries and comfirmations, one could comment out the LC_SYSEX_Action_HostReply etc. in

lc_sysex.inc.

Now I only need to find a 22cm wide 240 x 64 pixel graphic LCD  8)

A.

[stryd_one]

Who is talking about a custom app?

I thought this would need one, perhaps I've misunderstood your intentions.

The MBLC will receive and display LC compatible messages, so if the BCF sends the same kind of messages as a LC host, you could use it as a kind of LC monitor perhaps. I thought you wanted a general display for your BCF, which the LC is not.

[seppoman]

The host would still be the PC. I guess the BCF just ignores the LCD commands as it doesn't have LCDs. I've read through the LC/Mackie protocol specs a few years ago and if I remember correctly, there's no way the host could ask if a LCD is present (wouldn't make much sense because the "official" units all that their LCDs).

So I would try to use some Midi splitter to duplicate the Midi out coming from the PC and feed that into a MBLC that has only LCDs connected (no Midi out either). This would probably work fine.

S

[ilmenator]

Or you just forward the incoming MIDI stream as is to the Behringer. MIDIbox just picks out the data that needs to be displayed on the LCD, but leaves it untouched. (I assume that everything that the Mackie Control displays is coming in via MIDI, and is not data that is created in the unit itself?)

[seppoman]

Or you just forward the incoming MIDI stream as is to the Behringer. MIDIbox just picks out the data that needs to be displayed on the LCD, but leaves it untouched.

that's kind of what I meant. just use a "Midi splitter" (I think these are called a Thru box) to send the PC's Midi out to both the BCF and the MBLC and Midi In of the PC just connected to the BCF. That way it's even irrelevant if the MBLC sends stuff or "leaves the data untouched", the PC won't notice.

(I assume that everything that the Mackie Control displays is coming in via MIDI, and is not data that is created in the unit itself?)

yes that's right, the Mackie/LC is just a dumb remote, as soon as it's online it will display anything (and nothing more) that the PC sends.

S

[ilmenator]

Actually, I was saying that the Core module with just the LCD(s) attached is sufficient for that, as it has a MIDI in and out. No need for an additional Thru box here.  :)

[seppoman]

but you'll want the BCF to receive the data, too, so it needs to be duplicated somewhere. the MBLC Midi out isn't suitable for chaining these boxes and shouldn't be connected to anything. You won't necessarily need an extra thru box, an LTC module providing a Midi thru port is sufficient.

S

[ilmenator]

Hehe, now I get your point: you / him would want to use the MBLC app without modification - of course, then you need to do something like that. Still, you could "simply" modify the MIDI OUT routines... (Probably too big a job for an assembler noob, though - I would not try to do that myself :).)

In hardware, a 74HC04 will do the job nicely. For inspiration, see this PDF, replace the resistor and LED (e.g. R16 / D6) with another inverter. Or look at the Bareille design.

[latigid on]

Couldn't you just use the MIDIMON project?  :o

http://ucapps.de/midimon.html

[seppoman]

no.

[nebula]

The last thing I want to ever do is discourage somebody from building a MIDIbox, expecially one as simple as you describe, but I thought I'd chime in about John Pitcairn's software in case you aren't aware:

http://www.opuslocus.com/lcxmu/

"LC XMU" allows an ordinary knob-laden MIDI controller box to act as a Logic Control.

http://www.opuslocus.com/lcxview/

"LC XVIEW" gives you just the display, on screen, for "any hardware controller that can accurately emulate a Logic Control or Mackie Control"

[alekzander]

The last thing I want to ever do is discourage somebody from building a MIDIbox, expecially one as simple as you describe, but I thought I'd chime in about John Pitcairn's software in case you aren't aware:

http://www.opuslocus.com/lcxmu/

"LC XMU" allows an ordinary knob-laden MIDI controller box to act as a Logic Control.

http://www.opuslocus.com/lcxview/

"LC XVIEW" gives you just the display, on screen, for "any hardware controller that can accurately emulate a Logic Control or Mackie Control"

I have seen those before, but thanks for pointing them out. Behringer actually has a Windows only software for the display. Tascam, remember the Tascam FW Firewire interfaces/control surfaces are also displayless, similarly provides software displays.

However, I find that there is a "disconnect" between control and display if the physical

distance between them is too large, hence the idea to built one. An alternative would

be a second display hooked up to the computer and located just behind the BCF. One of

these external 7-8" LCDs which are connected via USB might be nice for this.

A.

[Lorcan]

Hi Alexander,

I'm interested in extending the capabilities of my BCF too ;)

Btw, there's someone looking to do the same over at bc2000 yahoo groups (maybe you in fact)

The BCF is a good solution for me as it is quite cheap, especially considering buying faders and making a decent panel for them does not seem so easy if you don't have the right tools.

But it also has some limitations: I find there aren't enough buttons to control various Cubase functions, nojog wheel, and of course no display, which makes using the vpots for anything else than pan a little less than straightforward.

So I'm thinking of building a stripped-down Midibox LC with a display + buttons (solo, mute, transport functions and others) and maybe a few encoders (jog wheel) to compensate for the lack of those on the BCF.

I'm currently at the planning stage, I'll keep you informed on my progress .. if I can find enough time for this, that is  :P

Cheers,

Lorcan

[jedstar2001]

Hi Alex

I also want to build an lcd so I can read track names etc in lc mode on a Beringer controller .

For me it needs to be reasonably inexpensive so no midi splitter as these are around £40 .

I reckon I could take the control signal for the lc feed (inside reaper, cubase etc) send it into midi ox or console and split it then send one copy of the midi to the control in on the Beringer and the other to the midi in on the Beringer (via usb) Then send the in thru the Beringer and out the physical out and into the midibox core keeping the hole thing contained. The best thing is there would be no visable leads with the lcd positioned directly over the midi port 

All I think I really need to do is find a suitable lcd as I am no programmer and don't fancy having to re compile anything .

Any joy your side are you still attempting yours.

Jedi