MB SID older version...Please HELP!

[sk8rseven]

Hello friends, I've got issues with an pre V2 (os 1.7, 6581 chip, which I understand won't work with V2, hence) mb core + sid module standalone (2x40 lcd, 1 bankstick, no control surface).

I loaded the mios, OS, and presets OK(no thanks to vista! lucky I had a xp box), but I don't get any audio, just faint crackles with note info.

I don't have a AIN module so I never added the basic control surface, just wanting to tweak remotely via midi, would that matter?

I'm at the end of my abilities and was hoping I might be able to send this to one of the obviously capable troubleshooters here (unless anyone here is near dayton, ohio),  for a fair paypal/money order fee?

I appreciate your advice and suggestions but I'm no expert and would need step-by-step instructions...I would preferably commision someone to add the basic control surface and just get it running!

Thanks a metric ton!

[nILS]

6581 chip, which I understand won't work with V2

What gave you that idea? v2 supports all SIDs.

I don't have a AIN module so I never added the basic control surface, just wanting to tweak remotely via midi, would that matter?

You don't need an AIN module for the CS. What you need is a DIN module. Not having a CS will not lead to no sound though.

for a fair paypal/money order fee?

Neh. You either fix it yourself or it's gonna be done for free. Charigng money for anything mb-related is bad karma.

I appreciate your advice and suggestions but I'm no expert and would need step-by-step instructions...

Which is not a problem at all. The chat is a lovely place for step-by-step trouble shooting.

Let's see what you got working so far:

* Core is working apparently, as you are able to upload MIOS, the sid app and the presets (are you sure you used the v1.7 presets?)

* We don't know if the SID module is working.

To find that out, first remove all ICs from the SID module. Then test the voltages as described on ucapps. Post the results here.

If all the voltages are okay, you'll need to do the interconnection test (also described on ucapps).

If that's okay as well and you still get no sound, your SID is most likely damaged - we'll know more after you post the test results.

[sk8rseven]

Hi, first thanks for the help! Yeah it wasn't the 6581 keeping me with os 1.7, it's that I've think I've got a PIC18F452 in my core, (labeled "BSL V1.2B PIC18F452") (2008 TK), and the presets were for 1.7 too...

Unfortunately I can't get mios studio to work on my xp box now, naturally. Has anyone figured out a vista interface? So now I can't do the interconnection test or test-tone program...

Check out this picture of my guts:

I've seen conflicting wiring diagrams than what I have, namely @ J2 on the core, and my audio out(I tried attaching just the ground of the audio out to the ps but didn't mess with j2, still nothing)...I inherited this mess from someone who gave up after only getting mios on...not that I got much further, but I didn't assemble it...I know what jumpers are, but this guy just went for the pins with a snake! Anyway they're not shorted, so I don't know if since this is wired different than what I see in the pdf, what I should do...I will pull the sid chips and see if 5v is where it should be next, I guess?

Sorry for relating $ to mb stuff! I can at least offer round trip postage and I'll mentally send you white light for your help!

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[nILS]

That's correct, to run v2 you'll need a PIC18F4685.

J2 on the core is +5V/Gnd which you don't need to attach to anything.

Directly soldering the wires to the headers is in fact usually not a great thing to do, as it makes checking and replacing a lot harder.

Pull the SID chip and check the voltages first.

[Smithy]

Unfortunately I can't get mios studio to work on my xp box now, naturally. Has anyone figured out a vista interface? So now I can't do the interconnection test or test-tone program...

Have you the latest version of Java installed?

Just a simple thing that could be overlooked.

Mios Studio should run on vista also,

the only problem i could see there is maybe an unsupported midi driver or something. You may have no problems at all.

[sk8rseven]

Hello again my mb guru friends. Well I still can't get Mios studio to run on vista or my xp box, on which previously I had no problem...gee I wonder why I like hardware?

Anyway! I pulled the two smaller ICs on the sid board and read 5 volts OK but I couldn't get the sid out of it's seat, I don't have IC pliers. I hope it's not my 6581, and without pulling it, how can I tell without running the interconnection test in mios studio? Could I launch that in midiox on vista or XP?

Also the PSU-core-sid PDFs that I've seen for this version 1 setup have just the positive power connected to the sid module, and I guess it's grounded by the audio neg? If you look at my pic my sid power is parallel to my core, would that matter? I don't have the electronics parts or skills to optimize the ps like on the PDFs either.

If I can't get this going via advice, would it be kosher to send this to one of you to get working, and send some parts along(I have some 2x20 lcds, buttons, switches and knobs, etc) for your trouble? I just want to play this thing so bad! Thanks alot for your help!

[fussylizard]

You don't need IC pullers to get the SID chip out.  Just use a small flat-bladed screwdriver and *gently* pry it up.  Pry one end of the chip up a mm or so (put the screwdriver next to the pins on one corner, then do the same on the opposite corner), then work on the opposite end and alternate until the chip comes up.  Often you can just slide the screwdriver in between the socket and the chip (holding the screwdriver parallel to the PC board) right next to the pins along one side and the shaft of the screwdriver will slowly pull the pins out of the socket (then repeat on the other side).

Just be careful and go slowly, just a mm or less at a time and it will come out.

[sk8rseven]

Hi again! Yes the mini screwdriver did it, so I read 11.81v in a corner of the 6581 socket, 2v, and 5v in two spots on either side, and 5v on both the smaller IC sockets. I'm getting 15v on the mains to both the sid and core. Aside from the 2v I think that's values I'm supposed to be getting?

I have midi-ox working and the patches change, but that's all, no sound...but I can't seem to send a .hex with midi-ox?...so I can't run the interconnectivity test. I think I'm missing something glaringly simple, maybe the sid chip is bad? Thanks

[sk8rseven]

Well guys, I don't know what else to do: neither my xp box or vista machine will run frikkin mios studio, and I can't figure how I can send .hex files with midi-ox. So I can't run interconnecivity or testtone progs.

I tried various PS wirings like the pdfs, with just a power lead to the sid module and grounded through the audio neg, still nothing...and I don't know if I'm getting the right voltages at the sid, anyway...

Is there a way to test the 6581 itself? I guess I could try to find another one at a thrift store or garage sale by chance, does anyone have a good sid chip to sell? I'll just buy the core PIC which I can run V2 (along with a din module for the basic control surface while I'm at it) but with this rig I don't know if I'll fry any new sid when I socket it or something, so! Pretty please does anyone want to fix this as practice or something? I can trade some parts, buy new parts if needed...I just want to make it run! Thanks!

[fussylizard]

What happens when you run MIOS Studio?

Sorry if you know the following, but just in case you don't:

You should have the latest JRE installed.  To test that it is working you should be able to go to a command prompt and type:

  java -showversion

That should tell you the JRE version you have.  If you get "file not found" or some other error re-install the JRE.

Next unzip the MIOS Studio zipfile so you have a .jar file (e.g. MIOSStudio_beta9_0.jar).  Then just open a command prompt, navigate to where the .jar file is and type:

  java -jar MIOSStudio_beta9_0.jar

That should be it- MIOS Studio should open.  If you get something like "Unable to access jarfile MIOSStudio_beta9_0.jar" then you're not in the correct directory when you run the java -jar MIOSStudio_beta9_0.jar command.

[sk8rseven]

Well, Yay, thanks to your help (god what a pain) I finally got mios studio to work on my vista machine, progress, but...

Ran the testtone prog, nada...checking my PS wiring both ways...

The interconnection test just says:

Test Sid Pin A0

Does that mean pull the chip and check for a (I don't know what value) voltage in the socket, or is my chip bad? Thanks!

[nILS]

Follow the instructions in the readme.txt (and possibly instrcutions in the main.asm) that came with the app.

Pull the SID (always good to be on the safe side), send CC, measure voltage at current pin, repeat.

[fussylizard]

OK, so MIOS is running, that's progress!

Like nils said, review the instructions carefully on the interconnect and testtone apps and report back your exact findings.  It is best if you can list exactly what you tested and the result, i.e. "Tested voltage between pins x and y and got z volts".  The testtone app, for example, allows you to short two pins on the IC socket together (without a SID) to test the audio output buffer circuit.  Did you try that?  We'll be able to help a lot more if you can provide more details.

Good luck!

[sk8rseven]

Hi, well I've been going back and forth so much I don't know which way is up, but I did run the testtone again, with a different audio monitor setup, and heard 1k whining faintly over 60hz...but I pulled the chip and jumpered the pins and almost blew my eardrums, so I guess the audio amp is working, but far louder than the 1k I heard with the chip in!

So I did the interconnection test, went through the mod wheel steps, checked everything and read the same values every time:

I get 11.81v in the corner, I guess that's pin 15?

I get 4.98v on pin 8, and 5v on pin 18.

 

Same for every number (A0-D7) but the CS# did not have the 4.8v on pin 8.

Went back and uploaded the sid 1.7 OS and patches, fed it notes, nada.

Please remember I don't have the knowledge skills or time to pull or test any electrical components without some serious step-by-steps!

Thanks!

[fussylizard]

Cool, more progress.  So the audio output buffer is working, and at least you are getting some sound out of your SID!

I'm at the office now so I can't write a detailed reply, but did any voltages change when you moved the modwheel?  IIRC you should get 5V for whatever pin is selected by the modwheel, and the other pins tested by the interconnect test should be 0V.  /CS is the opposite (0V when selected, 5V when not selected).  The LCD display should show you what pin is selected.  (You might want to read carefully the docs to ensure I've described this correctly from memory.)

You can use this link (http://ist.uwaterloo.ca/~schepers/MJK/sid.html) to check which pins are which when testing.  The top of the chip has a little cutout in it which is shown at the top of the diagram.  So you should be able to test between pin 14 (ground) and each pin you are testing as you move the modwheel.

[sk8rseven]

Hi, thanks for the chip diagram, it helped for sure, but...am I supposed to test just the socket or the chip while it's in the socket? I did just the socket and as I adjust the mod wheel by increments it steps through all the alphanumbers OK, but I never got any voltages between pin 14(ground) and A0-D7, however when I selected the CS#, the voltage there dissapeared(but was present during the other's tests, as it should I believe)...I just read 11.81v on pin 28, 5v on 25, and 4.98 on pin 8(CS) during every test, so it seems my problem lies there?

I don't know if the core or the sid's main power is supposed to be at 15v? Cuz they both are. I could find seperate power supplies for each if necessary easily enough. Please help! Thanks

[fussylizard]

You should test without the chip so you did it correctly.

I think your supply voltages are OK (11.81v on pin 28, 5v on 25).  The 11.81v sounds just a touch low, but it should be OK for now.  I'm not sure about the 15V without digging up a schematic, but that seems reasonable.

So to clarify, the CS# pin read 4.98V during the test until you selected the CS# pin with the modwheel, at which point it went to 0v, correct?

So if you are not getting signals to the these pins in the socket, that is a big problem.  I'll have to dig up a schematic to give more specific recommendations.  With my experience building the MB-6582, IIRC the CS# line comes directly from the PIC, whereas the other lines come through the 74595 ICs.  So you could well have a problem with those ICs or the way they are connected.

You said earlier that the voltages on the '595 ICs were measured correctly, right (bottom left pin is ground, top right is +5v)?  Are the chips inserted correctly?  Check for bent pins that are not in the socket (also test continuity from the solder side of the board to the pin on the chip with no power applied).  Also ensure the socket and chips are in the correct orientation.  If nothing else, find the ground pin for the chip (bottom left pin) and verify the solder joint for it is connected to the ground plane (hope that makes sense!).

What revs of the boards (SID and CORE) do you have?

[sk8rseven]

Hi again! Yes I tested the 595 ICs sockets to be delivering 5v OK...is there a way to see if they're toasted?

Boards:

Sid R3A

Core R4D

The previous owner's hard-wiring of the core to sid is different than any diagrams I've seen (please see pic from earlier this thread), is there a definite way these revision boards should be connected, running V1?

Thanks!

[fussylizard]

Not sure where you are on this but did you verify the wiring between the core and the SID boards?  I can't tell from your earlier picture if it is correct or not.  Basically you need to connect the following signals from core J10 to SID J2: S0, RC, MD, MU, and CLK.  You can also power the SID board from the core by connecting Vd and Vs on core J10 to Vd and Vs on SID J2 (it looks like this is what is done).  There are other ways to connect power to the SID board but for a single-SID setup like you have this scheme is fine.

Since it appears the 74HC595s are not working (per your results of the interconnect test) I would especially check MD, MU, and RC since these are the signals that come from the core that control the 74HC595 chips.  If you find something wired incorrectly, fix it and re-run the interconnect test.

If the wiring is OK you could try removing IC3 and running the interconnection test with just IC2.  This will only allow you test A0-A4, but it could isolate a problem with IC3.  You can then put the chip that was in IC3 into IC2 and test A0-A4 again.  That will help isolate if there is a problem with the chip that was originally in IC2.