Evaluating MBSEQv4 for Live Shows

[m00dawg]

Howdy SEQers!

Hawkeye has planted a seed in my mind. After trying to figure out how to setup Ableton Live to configure presets and things and serve as a MIDI clock master, it has occurred to me MBSEQ would be a better fit. I was already thinking about MBSEQ Lite but think I would like to build the big thing. I was combing through docs today though to make sure it does what I need and have a few loose ends. Basically the needs would be:

1. MIDI Clock Master

2. Patch Changer

So if I load up a program or track, it will load up the proper patches on my SID and FM synths)

3. Keyboard Mapper

So if I load up a program or track, it will route my key, knobs, and sliders to my synths in various ways)

4. Send/Receive Mapper

So if I load up a program or track, it will send MIDI CC's to Live so it will configure my send/receive channels as I want for a particular song. Eventually, I'd replace Live with a real effects rack and something to generate a click-track and would like those configured via CC events as well.

5. Visual BPM Counter

It's an add-on, I know. I was going to integrate the BPM counter into another 1U rack I was going to use for some GameBoy sync hardware (ArdunioBoy) and could mount a BPM display there. I might end up using a DSUB from the SEQ to my GB rack so I can send over MIDI Out and the connections for the BPM counter in one run.

6. 19" Rackmount form-factor

I want to put this in a live stage rack along with as many other things as I can (including my sammichFM and sammichSID synths until I put them in a rack also). I can't seem to find a good 3U rack in the US that matches those used in Wilba's reference design though. Any ideas there?

So, can MBSEQ do all that? Really I only need a small subset of things from MBSEQ initially since at least one GameBoy will run on their own (via the clock sync) and play using LSDJ and everything else I was thinking of playing along myself on a keyboard (hence the need to set the keyboard up automatically when I load up a song). So I'm wondering if a subset of MBSEQ LITE may do the trick (just need to add a BPM display and more MIDI I/O). But rather like the idea of a full sequencer should we want to do more fancy things in the future anyway.

If so, I know SmashTV has the single-board kits. But the question remains on the rack enclosure and the front panel. I was talking to SmashTV on IRC and he mentioned needing to move away from blind holes and JB Weld and go for front-mounted screws to secure the control surface, since it is for a live setting and will get moved around a lot. Plus trying to find a good 3U rack in the US hasn't been easy. I bought one from Jameco for my MBSID rackmount project (still in the works, but on the back burner for now) but that one does not look like it may work perfectly with the control surface layout.

Unfortunately, MBSEQ is somewhere between "nice to have" and "need to have" because we can probably do without using Ableton Live for most things. But I don't like trusting a computer, or software that runs on it, to the lifeblood of a live show and would rather use it for send effects and as a backup. What started this was having trouble getting Ableton Live to switch banks for my sammichFM (it doesn't work because Live always sends out an extra CC). If I could solve that with MBSEQ, seems like it'd be worth it.

Thoughts?

[Hawkeye]

Hi Tim,

great to read that!

I can confirm (items marked with *, i am 100% sure because used recently)

1* yes :)

2 via mixer map,

3* via midi router, up to 16 routes possible, this alone is worth the cost of the seq :),

4 is like 2) - you can send ccs to ableton, the rest is up to ableton configuration

5* also evaluate the current step display, it is great to have for live playing and is only 3 more digits - you have to mod the frontpanel for the bpm display anyways

6 yes, but need to modify the existing designs, see 5), i think julianf can do it, fpd can do it for sure, but $$$

Bye,

Peter

[m00dawg]

Hi Tim,

great to read that!

I can confirm (items marked with *, i am 100% sure because used recently)

1* yes :)

2 via mixer map,

3* via midi router, up to 16 routes possible, this alone is worth the cost of the seq :),

4 is like 2) - you can send ccs to ableton, the rest is up to ableton configuration

5* also evaluate the current step display, it is great to have for live playing and is only 3 more digits - you have to mod the frontpanel for the bpm display anyways

6 yes, but need to modify the existing designs, see 5), i think julianf can do it, fpd can do it for sure, but $$$

Bye,

Peter

Pssh, you made this monster! :) Actually I was already considering MBSEQ for a while I was just hoping Live would get us going longer. The lack of patch management was sort of a bummer :/ Otherwise a LaunchPad + Live would have worked well enough (though I still wanted a hardware BPM counter).

So for 5, I assume with the "step" display, you mean the BLM addition? Or? I was actually going to have an external display either attached to another rack unit or on its own so I could avoid having to modify the front panel in hopes to get in on a bulk over for a 19" Rackmount one if they exist. The problem there is finding a compatible 3U rack here in the States :/

For 6, I think I saw julianf is doing custom CNC work in the bulk order forum? That's what you were talking about I assume?

[Hawkeye]

Hi Tim,

yes, the external BPM indicator (if needed, as you can also display the BPM on the SEQ V4 bpm screen) takes 3 or 4 LED digits, they are quite small. You could put it on a small 0.5HE/Height unit or a 1 HE/Height units units aluminum blind, which is available for very cheap on ebay, the LED digits are 17mm high, so 22,5 mm for that half height unit is enough and does not waste valuable rack space.

The additional current track step display is another add-on, which takes three more LED digits and is wired up much the same like the 3 or 4 BPM digits - these digits could also go to the external panel. You need one DOUTx2 or a half populated DOUTx4 Module for these addons.

Here is the corresponding thread:

upper led digits: 4-digit bpm

lower right led digits: 3-digit current step position display

Regarding the rack itself - i´d recommend a flight case rack (google it), they are very rugged, have a handle for carrying and can hold more than 3 height units...

If you are going this route with an additional 0.5HE blind for LED digits, you could fall back on the "standard 19 inch mbseqv4 panels" made from julianf or frontpanel express (also, there is less risk of something going wrong, as these are proven designs).

Bye!

Peter

Edited July 6, 2012 by Hawkeye

[m00dawg]

Cool that helps!

Indeed I was thinking of a flight case. It just depends on how many components we will have and how much space they use. MBSeq + GB Rack will end up being 4U. I was thinking of seeing if I could make another 1U for a slimmed down sammichFM and sammichSID as well. I think most of those are 6U or so, so I think I might have enough room.

I'm all about the 19" panel - the only problem is I haven't found compatible 3U enclosures in the US. Jameco has some for a decent price, but they seem to have less space than other rack designs I have seen on the forums, so I'm a tad worried it might not work (plus it needs a different mounting solution compared to what most others use). If I could square that problem away, then yeah I'd be good to go (other than the cost of building everything anyway :) )

[m00dawg]

The additional current track step display is another add-on, which takes three more LED digits and is wired up much the same like the 3 or 4 BPM digits - these digits could also go to the external panel. You need one DOUTx2 or a half populated DOUTx4 Module for these addons.

Here is the corresponding thread:

upper led digits: 4-digit bpm

lower right led digits: 3-digit current step position display

So I've been thinking about this over the weekend and what I've come up with so far is to put the CORE plus any extras for MBSEQ on a 1U shelf with a custom faceplate. The faceplate would have the extra BPM and possibly track step displays. This solves lots of problems. It avoids the problem of finding a suitable 3U chassis that works with Wilba's CS and panel design, should cost a good deal less, and allows me to extend the interface with the BPM counter (and maybe a BPM encoder, I haven't decided yet). I may even be able to combine my ArduinoBoy stuff with the MBSEQ in a 1U rack and panel to save some space if we end up running out of U space in whatever flight case or stage rack we use.

I did have one question, though. With hooking up the BPM and track step displays, can they both share the a-g, Dot connections or do they need to be discrete? If the latter, am I going to be close on shift-registers given I would need 3 more than the standard control surface?

[Hawkeye]

Nice!

I did have one question, though. With hooking up the BPM and track step displays, can they both share the a-g, Dot connections or do they need to be discrete? If the latter, am I going to be close on shift-registers given I would need 3 more than the standard control surface?

They are shared! You need 1 shift register for the seven segments plus one dot per digit = 8 pins, and 1 shift register for up to 8 digits, but only 4 (bpm) + 3 (track position) are used.

So you need an additional DOUTx2 (or a half populated DOUTx4). The "Wilba" standard control surface PCB has an outport port to connect more DOUTs to the DOUT chain, as far as i know.

Bye,

Peter

[m00dawg]

Indeed it does! Just wasn't sure how many extra shift registers I could enumerate. But I would guess 2 shouldn't be a problem given your referenced setup. Cool I'll work on that and will probably share my results as well. I really like the 4U solution and, in fact, now that I think of it, I think I'm going to do that for my MBSID project as well. Does consume another rack position but would make things SOOOO much easier.

[m00dawg]

It's a bit ugly, and took me long than it should have, but here is what I came up with for a BPM/Step module that would (should) fit on a 1U front panel. I went with 3 digit displays for a few reasons but I think that will be ok. I might be able to cram a 4-digital segment on there but initially I was getting close to the Eagle limitations with 3. I also couldn't find a 4-segment in Eagle. I'm not sure I will really need it since all our stuff is MIDI sync'ed and we will have a click-track even if we ever get to an off BPM. The MBSEQ will be the master anyway so other than tempo slides and things I don't see a huge need for it (we'll also likely have a click track or be playing with a MIDI sync'd instrument).

I didn't really need a BPM display at the onset but I'm trying to see if I can fit both the MBSEQ guts into the same 1U shelf as the ArduinoBoy (GameBoy) and have them share a 1U panel. So I needed to make the board so I knew about the size measurements to make for the panel.

Anyways it's totally untested and may be a little while before I am able to test out the boar design, but I thought I would share what I came up with if someone wants to use it. If anyone wants the Eagle board and schems I can post them too.

[Hawkeye]

Very nice!

Please prototype it e.g. on breadboard first before producing the pcb - i am not 100% sure of the digit wirings - also, in my version i´ve omitted the resistors (direct driving leds is normally not a recommended thing to do, as there is no current limitation then, but on the other hand, the pulse is very quick and my led digits (a series of kingston single digits - for your 4-digits problem) are still very alive after many hours of usage and the brightness was increased).

To realize the three step digits, I just added three more iterations to TKs bpm display loop, which slightly decreased the overall brightness a little bit (not very visible).

Bye,

Peter

Edited July 10, 2012 by Hawkeye

[m00dawg]

I can probably wire something simple up on a project board, but these days making PCBs is so cheap it's almost worth the risk :) But noted, when I get closer to building this part I'll test it out. Mostly it was a proof of concept to see if such a design would fit within the vertical limitations of a 1U while still having room for screw-holes and things.

For the resistors I thought about leaving them off too since I couldn't find any recommendations on the Kingston specs about what value. Although the spec sheet does warn against not using resistors :) Since it's for a live setting, it may be better to have them than not (don't want it breaking at the wrong time) but that's probably also something I'll have to test before having the board fabbed.

[m00dawg]

So I've been thinking about this off and on as I can. We're not quite ready to have the need for an MBSEQ yet as we have other things we need to get first (like a live mixer, compressors, IEMs, etc.). But I was now thinking - I really don't need the full control surface. In fact, I still really just need to be able to select and start/stop tracks.

 

The SEQ is really our MIID master so it's handling the clock, sending patch changes to synths and playing a few MIDI tracks depending on the song. All that will be done before-hand. So other than maybe a knob to change the BPM and a track/BPM display, I dunno if I need really anything else?

 

So I'm wondering if I can't setup all the tracks using a computer, dump them to an MBSEQ with a vastly reduced control surface? Or is this really still in MBSEQ territory at this point?

 

It's significant becuase avoiding the full control surface saves cost which could go to all the other mountain of gear we need for our live shows and means I can get an MBSEQ working sooner.