LC<MBNG question

[Guest Major_KONG]

Hi,

I am curious about the fader resolution/steps for a MotorFader MB.  Will the motor faders only have 128 steps?

The Mackie Control is designed with Penny & Giles&#8482; custom touch-sensitive motorized optical faders with 100mm throw and 1024 step, 10-bit resolution.

Does anyone know how this is possible with a MIDI interface?

I've been planning to build a MB Transport/Headphone mixer, but if the MidiBox can implement motor faders with more than 128 steps, I will plan on building a MB LC clone as well.

Thanks,

Major KONG

[Guest Major_KONG]

Hi,

I am curious about the fader resolution/steps for a MotorFader MB.  Will the motor faders only have 128 steps?

The Mackie Control is designed with Penny & Giles&#8482; custom touch-sensitive motorized optical faders with 100mm throw and 1024 step, 10-bit resolution.

Does anyone know how this is possible with a MIDI interface?

I've been planning to build a MB Transport/Headphone mixer, but if the MidiBox can implement motor faders with more than 128 steps, I will plan on building a MB LC clone as well.

Thanks,

Major KONG

[ilmenator]

Hi Major KONG,

you can transmit values up to 14 bit by using RPNs (Registered Parameter Numbers) or NRPNs (Non-Registered Parameter Numbers), which are defined in the MIDI standard. Quite a lot of MIDI devices use these, because 128 steps is actually very little for some parameters (think of e.g. pitch bend).

Regards, ilmenator

[ilmenator]

Hi Major KONG,

you can transmit values up to 14 bit by using RPNs (Registered Parameter Numbers) or NRPNs (Non-Registered Parameter Numbers), which are defined in the MIDI standard. Quite a lot of MIDI devices use these, because 128 steps is actually very little for some parameters (think of e.g. pitch bend).

Regards, ilmenator

[Guest Major_KONG]

Thanks Ilmenator,

I've always wondered how higher bit rates were possible with standard  MIDI.

 

128 steps is actually very little for some parameters (think of e.g. pitch bend).

I actually feel 128 steps is also very little for mixing with automation.

How would  RPNs and/or NRPNs be implemented in a MB to achieve motor faders with 1,024 steps?  Would it be possible with the ALPS motor faders?

Maybe this is a function of the LC firmware?

Thanks,

Major KONG

[Guest Major_KONG]

Thanks Ilmenator,

I've always wondered how higher bit rates were possible with standard  MIDI.

 

128 steps is actually very little for some parameters (think of e.g. pitch bend).

I actually feel 128 steps is also very little for mixing with automation.

How would  RPNs and/or NRPNs be implemented in a MB to achieve motor faders with 1,024 steps?  Would it be possible with the ALPS motor faders?

Maybe this is a function of the LC firmware?

Thanks,

Major KONG

[TK.]

Currently the MBMF is working with a 8 bit resolution (=256 values). 10 bits (=1024 values) should also be possible, but only for sending (-> Pitch Bender events, NRPN). For receiving it makes no sense to work with such a high resolution, since the motors are moved so fast that differences of 10µm (10 cm / 1024 values) cannot be realised ;-)

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[TK.]

Currently the MBMF is working with a 8 bit resolution (=256 values). 10 bits (=1024 values) should also be possible, but only for sending (-> Pitch Bender events, NRPN). For receiving it makes no sense to work with such a high resolution, since the motors are moved so fast that differences of 10µm (10 cm / 1024 values) cannot be realised ;-)

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[Guest Major_KONG]

Thanks for the further info Thorston,

I'm not sure, but for mixing purposes I think I would need more steps than 256.  It's not speed that I need, but precision.  Would I be able to have acurate motorfader response in .25db increments with 256 steps?  Sometimes the tweaks I do when mixing are very small.

Also, would it make sense to have the send/receive bit depth be different from one another with motorfaders?  I could understand with non motorized.

Thanks Thorston for being so helpful to those who desire your knowledge.

Major KONG

[Guest Major_KONG]

Thanks for the further info Thorston,

I'm not sure, but for mixing purposes I think I would need more steps than 256.  It's not speed that I need, but precision.  Would I be able to have acurate motorfader response in .25db increments with 256 steps?  Sometimes the tweaks I do when mixing are very small.

Also, would it make sense to have the send/receive bit depth be different from one another with motorfaders?  I could understand with non motorized.

Thanks Thorston for being so helpful to those who desire your knowledge.

Major KONG

[TK.]

Hi,

I will check the db resolution with Logic this weekend.

Which sequencer software are you using? And which possibilities are given by the program to control higher resolutions from external?

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[TK.]

Hi,

I will check the db resolution with Logic this weekend.

Which sequencer software are you using? And which possibilities are given by the program to control higher resolutions from external?

Best Regards, Thorsten.

[Guest Major_KONG]

Hi Thorston,

Which sequencer software are you using? And which possibilities are given by the program to control higher resolutions from external?

I'm using Nuendo.  The software runs in 10 bit so when using a mouse to move the faders, increments of .001 db are possible.  I'm assuming the LC (or MC) is the same since the fader resolution is 10 bit, but I don't know as I've never worked with one before.

So...is it at all possible to achieve this with a MFMB...or get close?

Thanks,

Major Kong

[Guest Major_KONG]

Hi Thorston,

Which sequencer software are you using? And which possibilities are given by the program to control higher resolutions from external?

I'm using Nuendo.  The software runs in 10 bit so when using a mouse to move the faders, increments of .001 db are possible.  I'm assuming the LC (or MC) is the same since the fader resolution is 10 bit, but I don't know as I've never worked with one before.

So...is it at all possible to achieve this with a MFMB...or get close?

Thanks,

Major Kong

[Frank]

Hi Major Kong,

I'm curious as to why you need such minute precision for something that would finally come out thru speakers move air molecules and  tickle the nerves in analog human eardrums :-).

Most people may perceive changes of 2dB but very ,very few can hear a 1dB change in level, i read this somewhere but please correct me if i'm wrong.

Peace

Frank

[Frank]

Hi Major Kong,

I'm curious as to why you need such minute precision for something that would finally come out thru speakers move air molecules and  tickle the nerves in analog human eardrums :-).

Most people may perceive changes of 2dB but very ,very few can hear a 1dB change in level, i read this somewhere but please correct me if i'm wrong.

Peace

Frank

[Guest Major_KONG]

Oops,

I held that zero too long.  I meant to say 10bit=.01db

I'm curious as to why you need such minute precision for something that would finally come out thru speakers move air molecules and  tickle the nerves in analog human eardrums .

Most people may perceive changes of 2dB but very ,very few can hear a 1dB change in level, i read this somewhere but please correct me if i'm wrong.

Yes, you are correct sir.  Most humans cannot hear a difference of 2db, as most humans cannot hear frequencies above 15khz.  However, most people can perceive the difference between material recorded at 44.1khz and 96khz, and there has to be a reason Tannoy is manufacturing monitors that exceed 50khz.  I think it has something to do with "feel".  To make a long story short, I would like to retain the feel I've become accustomed to, which is working on an analog mixing desk with flying fader automation.  Unfortunately, I can't afford an SSL with automation for my private studio.

Hope this all makes some sense,

Major KONG

[Guest Major_KONG]

Oops,

I held that zero too long.  I meant to say 10bit=.01db

I'm curious as to why you need such minute precision for something that would finally come out thru speakers move air molecules and  tickle the nerves in analog human eardrums .

Most people may perceive changes of 2dB but very ,very few can hear a 1dB change in level, i read this somewhere but please correct me if i'm wrong.

Yes, you are correct sir.  Most humans cannot hear a difference of 2db, as most humans cannot hear frequencies above 15khz.  However, most people can perceive the difference between material recorded at 44.1khz and 96khz, and there has to be a reason Tannoy is manufacturing monitors that exceed 50khz.  I think it has something to do with "feel".  To make a long story short, I would like to retain the feel I've become accustomed to, which is working on an analog mixing desk with flying fader automation.  Unfortunately, I can't afford an SSL with automation for my private studio.

Hope this all makes some sense,

Major KONG