Midibox for ableton live

[Lide]

Hi!

I´m new to this but I really think this is a great platform. I´m planning to build a midibox for controlling mostly ableton live, maybe sometimes logic too.

I already read some topics concerning this but didn´t find the info i need. So i hope some of you guys can help me.

I´d like to have the following controllers:

Model 1:

22 Encoders with LED-Rings (maybe 15 LEDs per ring) + 2 Encoders without LED-Rings

12 Faders (maybe 8 of  ‘em motorfaders, just have to check the prices)

44 Buttons with LEDs

maybe a Display

Model 2:

22 Pots

at least 2 Encoders without LED-Rings

12 Faders (maybe 8 of  ‘em motorfaders, just have to check the prices)

44 Buttons with LEDs

maybe a Display

I would prefer Model 2, but if this is not possible, then I can do Model 1.

Is this possible? And which MB-Project/Template would fit for this (probably MB64E?)?

What hardware do I need?

Hope this isn´t too “newbieish†for you.

Greetz, Lide

[SounDuke]

I would suggest MBLC as Live 5 has logic control now, that means a powerful tool for controlling Live. If you have an older version of Live (below 5) it is reasonable to build your model 2 as the MBLC would not be capable of communicating with Live.

MB64E seems to be the only choice, as from V2.1 the firmware lets you control 64 analog pots or faders or 8 motorfaders.

BUT if you set out the 2 encoders, you could build a MB64 (which doesn't support encoders - only an encoder for datawheel -) which has better functions to handle the pots (snap/relative/parallax mode very useful in live 4). 

for model 2:

1x core module

1x Ain module

2x DINx1 for the two encoders and the buttons

2 Dout module for the button leds

for model 1:

1x core module

1x ain module (without it you can connect only 8 faders)

3xdin module (and another shift register required) for buttons and encoders

3xdout module (not really sure about the number of DOUT you need, check enc rings connections)

Hope I helped bye

[Lide]

Nice Resonse!

Does that mean i could at least have ONE encoder on the MB64? I need min. one endless controller to skip through my scenes (if you are familiar with live, you know what i mean :)) And what does mean snap/relative/parallax?

Yes, i got the v5 of Live. Very cool prog. 8)

So lets sum this and see if i understand:

on MB64E i can use (See Model2):

22 Analog Pots

2 Encoders without LED-Rings

12 Faders (only without motor?, that would be ok)

44 Buttons with LEDs

right? And the Firmware v2.1 of MB64E would fit without coding? I´m not that familiar with programming...

Greetz, Lide

[SounDuke]

MB64 firmware supports an encoder, but it is only useable as a replacement of the 2 navigation buttons if you install a display (the use of encoders in mb64 requires code modification). I would definitely prompt you towards a MBLC (emulating the protocol of the mackie Logic control you can install a jog wheel and scroll through scenes with it).

For a quick explanation of pot modes please refer to www.ucapps.de under MB64 tutorial, Thorsten thought about everything read the infos on ucapps carefully

You can install encoders with ledrings too, MB64E can drive 128 Douts and I still suggest MBLC for motorfaders

You won't need to code, maybe some value adjustment to main.asm file (check Ucapps.de and the main.asm file for instructions on the whole operation!).

I still recommend you MBLC :D

[Lide]

Hi Sounduke,

i don´t get the point of the pot modes. Maybe i got to search more....

Is it for that: When changing the assignment of a pot and it differs from the position of the "virtual pot" in the sequencer then there are no jumps and the controller-signal only leads to a value-change if the position of the "virtual pot"-position is crossed? (Not easy to explain my thoughts right now...)

the reason why i prefer the mb64e is, that i think the pots give me better feeling when i perform a live session. And i build it for that purpose. Also i could not see the pros of a MBLC.

greetz, lide

[SounDuke]

2 examples to clarify the concept:

1) let's assume you built your MB64 and you assign a pot to the virtual fader of audio track 1 in session view: you get VEEEEry ecxited tweaking the volume with your MB and when you feel this is becoming boring, you move the virtual fader with the mouse. Result: the volume changes, the virtual fader moves but your pot stays in the last position you tweaked so when you move the pot the virtual fader reach immediately the position of the pot causing an annoying and sudden and unwanted change of volume. You could say "I'm an idiot if I build a MB and then I use the mouse to move the parameter.. I can easily do it with my MB". Here it comes the 2nd example

2) You assign all the pots to the virtual pots you want. You save the live set. You create a new live set. you assign the pots to various parameters on the new live set, you tweak the pots, you save the new live set and you close live and go to bed. The morning after you are fresh and happy, you remember the first live set you saved and you reload it. All the pots in your MB are in a different position than the virtual pots because you tweaked with the 2nd live set. THE SNAP MODE saves your day, because Live communicates with your MB, telling her :D the position of the virtual faders. This requires a dual midi connection but is very useful, as virtual faders ignore any change until you reach the snap point where real pot and virtual pot meet themselves. Relative and parallax are a little bit difficult to explain, but they serve the same purpose. Read carefully MB64 tutorial (pot mode page) for further information.

bye and ganbatte ;)

[Lide]

aaaaahhhhh! there´s light at the end of the tunnel!

:)

ok.

and encoders always are "in position" of the virtual pots i think, right?

if so i can see at least one BIG pro of MBLC.

good night.

[SounDuke]

yeah you're right ;)

that's not only one big pro of MBLC. Check Live manual to know about Mackie control implementation.

Good tinkering 

[Lide]

... good morning!

so if i decide to build up a MBLC:

- can i use more than 8 faders? i guess i only can use 8 motorfaders, but add more faders without motors. so faders and encoders are the equivalent?

- can i use more than 9 encoders? there are only 9 on the design-picture at ucapps.

my plan now is to use the MBLC, add three full tracks (2 sub and 1 master) and one crossfader (normal fader with horizontal position!). therefore i have to replace some of the buttons (as schown on the right side of the LC-design-picture) with encoders/faders an change some code. does this work?

thank you for your patience  :-\

[SounDuke]

In MBLC you can use only 8 motorfaders (I'm not very sure if the MBLC application supports more than 8 analog inputs).

If you want to use more encoders you must eliminate some of the buttons and change the DIN assignments

Well I suggest to build a MBLC+MB64E, this way you'll need 2 cores and you'll have to link them to one midi out or an RS232 port. This way, you'll have enough encoders and faders/pots+the advantages of motorfaders and mackie control protocol+ less coding issues :D

a lot depends by your budget, one additional core is not expensive, the true problem is represented by the motorfaders and the pots/faders.

[Lide]

i want the costs to be as low as possible

i´m breaking it down to the core:

i want a midibox to control ableton live on stage when i perform a gig.

and my minimum requirements therefore are:

- compact design (should i use faders at all? - think i could even get along with one crossfader and replace the track faders with encoders/pots)

- 11 tracks with minimum 2 rotary encoders/pots AND minimum 3 buttons (+LEDs) per track

- 1 fader for x-fade (do i need a motorfader for that? i think not)

- 8 more Buttons (+LEDs) for free programmable function

- at least 1 endless knob to skip through scenes

i want to be sure to get these with my midibox, but also take the maximum i can get

at this point it means to take MB64E, right? with encoders i don´t have that skip/relative-problem, right? but the crossfader ... ??? ...

if i need a mixing-controller at any time, probably i would go with a second box, making MBLC...

i´m little confused as you see  ???

[SounDuke]

- compact design (should i use faders at all? - think i could even get along with one crossfader and replace the track faders with encoders/pots)

- 11 tracks with minimum 2 rotary encoders/pots AND minimum 3 buttons (+LEDs) per track

- 1 fader for x-fade (do i need a motorfader for that? i think not)

- 8 more Buttons (+LEDs) for free programmable function

- at least 1 endless knob to skip through scenes

if this are the minimum requirements here's what you can do with MB64

MB64: you can have up to 64 pots, so 11 faders+ 2x11 pots (2 in each track)+1 fader for crossfade (I think using a motorfader for this function would be a waste) = 34 pots used and 30 free; you can have up to 64 led and 64 buttons, so 8 buttons/led+ 3x11 buttons/leds for tracks = 41 buttons/leds used and 23 buttons/leds free;  for the endless knob you should try this (I have not tried it so i'm not sure it will work): if you connect an encoder to the din module you use for the buttons, you use 2 digital ins: the encoder should work as 2 buttons, so when you move it counterclockwise it's like you press scroll down and when you turn it clockwise it's like you press scroll up. you assign one to scroll down highlighted scene and the other to scroll up highlighted scene via live and voila.

This way you can add 30 pots to the quoted configuration and 21 buttons :D and you have snap/relative/parallax

[Lide]

:D :D :D ;D

yes indeed. this seems to be my midibox-configuration (if the endless knob thing would work!)

thank you very much.

btw - anyone who could try an encoder on a din of the buttons???

[rambinator]

Hi!

Well I suggest to build a MBLC+MB64E, this way you'll need 2 cores and you'll have to link them to one midi out or an RS232 port.

You can not do that. The MBLC needs its own dedicated port.

I have a BCR2000 (which is similar to MB64E) and a MBLC (which is not completely finished but I allready tried the original MCU and i tested the MB without the motorfaders). When you want to do Live-Performances you should have a MB64E. The LC is much more usefull for mixdown if you produce with live like me. When you want to easily access parameters of softsynths, filters etc to tweak arround when jamming/performing it is way too complicated with the LC as the encoders have  many different functions and you have to swich through submenus to get what you want.

Search for Sashas customized "Maven-Controller" that he uses for Live in his shows. I've heard that it is in fact a Midibox Rip-Off (there's some evidence for that)

regards,

rambinator

[SounDuke]

Hi rambinator, isn't it possible to midichain MBLC to MB64E? Midibox link protocol under ucapps should state this possibility (I didn't this so far, but I will), MB64E with midi merging on

[rambinator]

It's not possible. Mackie-Protocol uses all channels on the midiport.

have a look at this thread:

http://69.56.171.55/~midibox/forum/index.php?topic=3097.0

the easiest way is to build the ltc in the lc. the usb module is more expensive.

if you want to build a big LC with multiple cores or with other boxes attached you

could also buy a midisport 2x2 or 4x4. rip it and put it in your box.

[Lide]

Hi!

Thanks for all replies.

for the endless knob you should try this (I have not tried it so i'm not sure it will work): if you connect an encoder to the din module you use for the buttons, you use 2 digital ins: the encoder should work as 2 buttons

I need to be sure if this works, before i decide to build MB64. The endless knob is a essential tool for working with live, so i would like to know if anybody could try this?

Greetz, Lide

[SounDuke]

Thanks Rambinator, I have no problem using 2 ports as Iìve got a midex 8 so plenty of ports! :D thanks for the advice ;)

Lide: As soon as I can I'll try it on my MB64 (I need to open the chassis to try it) gimme a week ;)

[SounDuke]

I was quicker than expected ;)

Unfortunately I told you bad, I received some encoders by Smash and they're not just 2 buttons (sorry Iìve never dealt with them outside the connections suggested by MB community and in addiction some encoders work differently from others), so my solution is not possible without changing the code. If you want pots with snap mode you need to build MB64+MB64E, otherwise with a single MB64E you'll have encoders and pots without snap mode.

Bye

[Lide]

thanks for checking this, sounduke, though it is bad news as i really liked to have a MB64.

i think i´ll go with one MB64E because i think with the encoders i don´t miss the snap/relative/parallax-thing. i would replace faders with encoders and that maybe leads to a more compact design ;) .

i think working without any faders will satisfy my needs. or is it possible to use a fader with the MB64E (using MIOS?)? though one fader for x-fading A-B in live would be nice!

greetz, lide

[SounDuke]

With the latest MB64E app it is possible to use pots/faders. Good luck

[Lide]

Hi all,

i´m really going into the end-phase of building my mb64+mb64e midibox for live. i decided  to build 2 cores (1 for mb64 and 1 for mb64e).

i´ll post the design as soon as i have my frontpanel and mounted everything together.

so long i have only one problem with the pot range (see this thread: http://www.midibox.org/forum/index.php?topic=5593.0 )

If anyone could help me with that issue, i would be really grateful

greetz, lide

[Lide]

Hi out there! Here you finally can get a picture of my new live-controller!

Works fine so far. So I want to thand all guys helping me to get along with this! THX!!!

There is one Problem left with my MB:

sometimes i press a button and LIVE does not respond on it and i have to push a second or maybe more times. It seems to be irregular.  Could this be because i set the debounce counter to 0?

Greetz, LIDE

[Lide]

And an additional question:

Now that i have configured all my pot and button modes, is it possible to change the change the code, upload the new syx file without losing that configuration?

[raphael]

sometimes i press a button and LIVE does not respond on it and i have to push a second or maybe more times. It seems to be irregular.  Could this be because i set the debounce counter to 0?

Could be. Every mechanic switch bounces. So try some higher values. If it's always the same button it could be also a bad solder joint.

Now that i have configured all my pot and button modes, is it possible to change the change the code, upload the new syx file without losing that configuration?

1. Store your setup to a bankstick.

OR

2. Make a SysEx dump and store the dump via MidiOX. After codechange just do a sysEx upload again.

Raphael