robinfawell

For comparison , here are some prices from Doepfer. organ keyboard ("waterfall") Fatar TP/8O 5 octaves, weighted, with dynamic bubble contacts 130,00 Euros keyboard Fatar TP/9 5 octaves, unweighted, with dynamic bubble contacts 90,00 Euros hammer keyboard Fatar TP/10MD 88 keys, with dynamic bubble contacts and after touch (without Midi electronics, case and cables) 570,00 Euros The above listed keyboards are without Midi electronics, without case, without cables and without after touch. Keyboards with monophonic after touch or weighted keys (only for TP/9 available) as special design upon request (about 8 weeks delivery time, 50% deposit, no return possible) extra charge upon request. It is difficult, I know to make a direct comparison because SounDukes prices may refer to different Models. However it seems logical that the prices from Doepfer are significantly higher. Regards Robin

I have been in contact with SounDuke discussing the possibility of obtaining keybeds. (keyboards less electronics) Normally Fatar will only supply large companies such as Korg. SounDuke has a contact in Fatar. Hoewever he does not wish to jeopardise his relationship by pestering his contact with a series of small orders. He believes that it would be more attractive to Fatar if a large order could be placed. I would be interested if there are others who would like to place orders for Fatar keybeds. See http://www.fatar.com/home_fatar.htmm look at the Production. They make a large variety of keybeds and supply most keyboard suppliers except Yamaha and Roland. The supply both inexpensive and superior versions. Let me have Model Nos and quantities that you require. At this stage do not worry whether about identifying the Model Nos precisely; I am only trying to gauge the level of interest. SounDuke is fully occupied at present with Job hunting. Robin Fatar also supply Pedalboards, volume controls etc sse Accessories.

I forgot to mention that the problem the console also involved Dout modules. This comprised Core plus 2 Din plus 2 Dout behind the console then another Din for the Pedals located in the pedal switch assembly. The Dout and Din both load SC and RC. I shortened the cables to resolve the problem. The problem I recall was interference on the Console Led's which are driven by the Douts. Robin

I have not found that the cable length from key contacts to Din inputs to be the problem. I suspect that the capacitance loading on the signals from Din to Din and Core to Din degrades the signals. I agree with Jim Henry. Robin

I've put the schematic URL on my previous post. Doepfer can provide 88 and 76 key versions. Here is an email from them. "we have keybeds with 88 keys and 76 keys on stock at the moment (Fatar TP10MDF) . We order the version with 88 keys in regular intervals because we use them in our Masterkeyboards PK88, LMK2+ and LMK4+ We have also two samples of the 76 keys version on stock at the moment but there is no suitable keyboard electronic available so far. The keyboard electronic for 76 keys will be ready in about 3-4 months." You can see the various production models on the Fatar website. However you need a password to see schematics. I have contacted them. but they ignore you. They're only interested in OEM's. Thanks for the velocity reference. Have to go now. Robin

I have found that it is possible to buy Fatar keyboards (without electronics) eg TP 10 from Doepfer in Germany. They make their own midi controller keyboards using Fatar keybeds and schematics for the smaller keyboards are provided on the Doepfer website. The schematics show 2 contacts per note. These operate in conjunction with make and break bus bars. I am assuming that the system will provide velocity sensing with suitable strobing. There is a reference to the black keys giving a different velocity response to the white keys. Doepfer have a way of equalising this. I would be very interested if anyone has a method worked out to provide velocity information using Midibox. Regards Robin http://www.doepfer.de/DIY/Matrix_25.gif

A Word of Caution No 1. I completed my Church organ recently. You have to be careful with the cable length between the core and the Din and also between Din and Din. The output of a Din is not a line driver with matched impedance. I had to mess around a bit to avoid cable length problems. I have used Core 1 with 4 Din modules for the the Swell and Great keyboards. I mounted the core in the upper keyboard. I have used Core 2 with 3 Din modules for the console and the pedals. Core 2 is mounted in the console. Din 3 is for the pedals and is mounted near the pedal switches The above arrangement works but I have some interference. I would recommend that you consider having an additional core 3 with 1 Din. The core can then be mounted close to the Pedal Din near the pedal switches. All this means is that the Midi signal paths are longer which is not a problem. Word of Caution No 2 I started my project using Midio 128. Everything was fine until the Manual/ Pedal coupling was required. I then found that the Midio 128 application could not handle this aspect. I can explain this in more detail, I think. It was about 3 years ago. The result was that I had to start again programming my own application in C. If Manual/Pedal coupling is needed, work out what you need to do in advance. In your case things may be OK Regards Robin

If you want to get rid of the Hammond tone wheels, you will need to synthesise that function. The Hammond organ is an early example of additive synthesis. Each note is the combination of the fundamental and 8 harmonics 1st, 2nd etc in proportion to the number on the drawbar. I have looked into this. The tone generator part is the easier part to synthesise, however the Leslie speaker simulation is not easy. There have been a number of hardware synths that have tried to do this but my research shows that this was not a success. I have concluded that the better way to go is to buy the Native Instruments B4 program and to run this on a PC enclosed in the B3 case. This I know is the approach used by HenryGr on this forum. I am currently building a 1U rackmounted PC which will provide the intelligence of the Hammond B4 Organ. The next stage will be the Midi controller. I think that you could use the Midio 128 for this. I will probably program my own application in C. Regards Robin

Thanks Mike I will contact you when I'm back from holiday in about 2 weeks. Robin

Moxi All that remains of the old organ is the case, the keyboards and pedalboards and the switches operated by the keys and pedals. The sounds are new. Robin

This is primarily addressed to Henrygr but I am interested in any comments on the use of touch screens. Mark, What tasks do you envision being given to the touchscreen? As a complete novice as far a touch screens go, it seems as if you could allocate a huge amount of Hammond organ tasks including stop selection to the TS. There may be response time issues of course. Which version of TS have you purchased? Thanks Robin

I am looking for 2 bare bones keyboards that have the following features. Velocity sensitive. New or used. No cases if new, cases could be removed if 2nd hand. I want the 2 keyboards one above the other in normal organ position. 76 keys. Any suggestions. Robin

More photos RH Stops.pdf Console showing router cavities.pdf

After 3 years of work I have finished the design and have installed the redesigned Church organ in our village in Radnage, Bucks England. The design uses the standard Midi box components, ie Core modules, Din and Dout Modules. The design is based on the SCPOP organ (Google for website). This is a PC based design and uses the Roland Sound Canvas, in my case I have used the SC8850 version sound module. I have used 2 core Modules, 7 Din Modules and 2 Dout Modules. The core modules have been programmed in C with help from forum members especially Thorsten. The keyboards have a subsystem with 4 Din Modules and 1 core Module. This also deals with 2 Analog inputs. The second subsystem comprises the core module, 3 Din Modules and 2 Dout Modules. The program deals with the console controls, 8 Analog inputs and the pedalboard. The program is more complex. Selecting a given stop sends a fairly large Sysex message, typically 1500 bytes to the Sound module. These sysex messages are identical to the SCPOP Sysex messages. Each stop sound can have up to 5 parts, these are layered sounds. If anyone would like more detail please let me know. The overall result sounds good to my ears. Here are some photos. Robin See next thread for 2 more photos. Full View Organ.pdf Centre Stops.pdf LH Stops.pdf

I would like to thank everyone for their input. As mentioned in another thread I will concentrate on making a rackmount pc then attempt to make a midi controller for the Native Instruments softsynth trio. (Cut down versions of the B4, FM7 and Prophet 53) As a future project I would like to make a hardware Leslie Speaker simulator. However a full Hammond Organ ie 2 keyboards with pedalboard based on the full version of Native Instruments B4 is also attractive. I would base all the controls on Midibox modules. Robin

Thanks Mark The keyboard approach is a good one. I would prefer to have my midi controls on a 2U or 3U panel in the same rack as the PC. I wonder whether I can concoct a the equivalent of of a standard keyboard with only a few keys which will provide the keystrokes to open the files. However the idea of using a sequencer with the various synths in different Midi channels removes the need for the keyboards altogether. I will concentrate on the rackmount pc first. Robin

I've decided to attempt to build a midi controller which will work in conjunction with my midi controller keyboard. In addition to controlling and displaying the presets and some midi parameters I would like to select one of the three standalone synthesis of the Native Instruments Express Keyboards ie B4,FM7 or the Prophet 53 softsynths. (not at the same time). The are installed with XP. HenryGr has suggested the use of a sequencer eg Sonar or Cubase where each softsynth is allocated a different midi channel. I wonder whether it is feasible and practical not to use a sequencer but to generate a midi message to open the program for the B4 or the FM7 or PRo 53 . I want to avoid mouse,keyboard and monitor if possible. How do I proceed? Would I use Visual Basic? or is there a simpler way to go? (I don't know VB but would be willing to learn.) From a hardware standpoint I will build a 1U rack mount PC and perhaps a 2U rack mount Midi Controller (Midibox). Any suggestions will be appreciated. Thanks Robin

I agree with Doc, the Leslie speaker and its cabinet reflections are complex. Similar opinions are also valid for piano synthesis. However I am unlikely to ever own or would even accommodate a real Hammond organ. As mentioned in a recent topic I am very impressed with the NI Softsynths B4 simulations and would be delighted if a hardware midibox solution could produce similar sounds. Bearing in mind the above, which synths referred to in the opening thread offfer the best solution. Regards Robin

I wonder whether any Midi-boxer has had any success with either the FM Module or the Sid Module synthesising Hammond Organ sounds. (There is also Speakjet and recently,Soundgin.) Are any of these more suitable for the Hammond sounds. Please let me have any pointers or relevant links. Thanks Robin

Dear Mark My copy of Cakework is too old to work with XP. However Turnkey in London have Cubase VST Ver 5 at £49 and Cakewalk Sonar 5 Studio Edition at £59. I've never used my Cakewalk much. Can you recommend any of the above? I'm looking at Linux, I see that they have the Rosegarden sequencer. I don't think that I can use the NI Express softsynths with that but I will pursue Linux Midi further. I will ask on the Midibox forum about Hammond synthesis to see if anyone has had any success with midibox hardsynths with Hammond sounds. Regards Robin

Unfortunately I have no VST host. The nearest I have is Cakewalk Version 5. I dont think that will work. Robin

I have just purchased "Express Keyboards" produced by Native Instruments.(about £60.00 in UK) This is a cut down version of 3 softsynths:- B4 Hammond, 64 Presets FM7, 64 Presets Pro-53, 64 presets I really like the Hammond Sounds! Although I can control the Presets with my old Elka MK76, it does not have the capacity to control 192 presets using the Midi Control of the Elka. My current thought are to to build a 1U rackmounted PC using Mini itx. I could also build a Midibox based Midi Controller in a 19" rack, this would be able to select the presets and ideally select any of the 3 softsynths. The unit would incorporate an LCD module to show the name of the preset and employ rotary encoders for preset selection. This would be a good exercise for me to improve my LCD programming knowledge. I am confident that the Midi control is feasible, however.... Can I avoid the use of mouse/keyboard and select the softsynth with the controller? (Perhaps using USB or Midi) I would welcome any suggestions or links regarding this last point. Robin

I have read your post and wonder why you are interested in scanning the JW 50. From the brief spec that I read, it would seem to be able to provide Velocity sensitive Midi On/Off Messages without modification. Maybe I am missing the point. Regards Robin

Thanks Mark I know Midi-ox fairly well and have used it extesively, my organ project is based on sending longish Sysex and other shorter Midi messages to the SC 8850. It is also helpful that you recommend M-Audio, I have looked at the 2496 as a possibility. Robin

I have delved a bit more into Soft Synths. The NI Express Keyboards package seems to be a good intro. I have an old Elka Mk76 Controller Keyboard. I am assuming that I can use this with the NI package. It has 8 banks of performance presets. What soundcard do you use in your rackmount pc? Thanks Robin