Krakov/Prague concerts

[cimo]

hi

a pal of mine (member of Tupperwear is going to perform in east Europe with his solo/noise/ambient project: Afg-an more info at

www2. o2bar. cz

http://strangercafe. com

http://profile.myspace.com/index.cfm?fuseaction=user.viewprofile&friendid=141795362&MyToken=f113411a-a7d8-47d4-a625-9df41db29cc0

Date:    Aug 18, 2008 1:26 PM

Subject: AFGAN shows in prague and krakow this week

Body: two special and the last two european afgan shows this week!!

20.08.

bar02, prague,

22.08.

stranger café, krakow, + special impro with krakow musicians!

hope to meet you there!

best

don t miss it if you re around and bring your earplugs

[ilmenator]

don t miss it if you re around and bring your earplugs

I'm probably a bit old-fashioned, but I never really understood why people go to [places/events] just to tap their ears in order to be able to stand the [sound/noise/torture/choose your own designator here]? It's a strange world.

[cimo]

I'm probably a bit old-fashioned, but I never really understood why people go to [places/events] just to tap their ears in order to be able to stand the [sound/noise/torture/choose your own designator here]? It's a strange world.

I am right now in Denmark, at work they play the national radio, all day, i consider that a torture, it hurts me, and i consider it offending to the human kind calling music what they broadcast, yet i am lucky that i don t understand Danish so i don t really have to stand the amount of b******t they talk about.

I ve also been this year to My Bloody Valentine concert, they played at the "Arena" stage at the Roskilde festival, well that was damn loud i felt kind of dumb for a couple of days.The melodies and the guitar drones were floating in my mind for days..

The Telescopes back in 2005 played for about 50 60 persons a 45 minutes set of pure guitar noise, waves of harmonics coming and going, they played barefoot, sitting crosslegged in the scene while using small toys to trigger feedbacks over a Wasp drone.

and so on...

the point is: what is music and what is to be considered noise? is there an absolute reference value where we can set our judgment?

A little curiosity: harmonics and octave shifting is "natural" while chromatic scales are "cultural".

And more: all the music you listen to right now, well i don t know you so let s say: most of the music you listen to these days, if played only 50 years ago would have been considered "noise".

Jimi Hendrix played "noise" even for the youngsters of his era, and that happened to many classic musicians in the last centuries.

I am open to understand other people taste on music but, most of time i face people that don t really have taste, they think they have, but all they do is being controlled and manipulated to think they actually like or not something.

AND

I don t consider myself any better: i perfectly know that i still have a long way to go to really understand not what music is (that s nearly impossible) but to understand my own taste, clear it from all the dirty created by... the Danish radio!  ;D

Well that was a long reply... but at least i hope that now you understand why there is people with interest in "noise" whatever it may mean..

Simone

[SLP]

I think what Ilmenator wanted to say is: "Why do they have to play music that loud?"

And that's exactly what I've been wondering about, too.

If you go to a concert, it is nowadays some kind of "standard" that the volume is above the pain threshold.

And it's getting louder every year.

Formerly, when I went into a "club" (mostly www.lex-beilngries.de ) the people were laughing at me because I was wearing ear-protection most of the time. Now I've got longer hair that covers most of my ear, so the people usually don't see it.

If it would be possible to talk (not to shout at the top of your voice into your friend's ear) in those clubs, I'm sure conversations would go like that:

-"Oh, look at this mollycoddle*!! He is wearing earprotection!!"

-"Better shut up and enjoy music now, 'cause in ten years you won't be hearing anything anymore"

It's not about standing pain here. It's not like jumping naked into a half-frozen lake.

It's about getting deaf.

Once you've lost your sense of hearing, it's lost. For ever.

I just don't understand people...  ::)

and @ cimo:

I think that there is nothing like a "definition" of what is noise and what is music, or the fact of someone having a good "taste" in music.

I think people are always developping. Music, of which I thought was just plain noise ten years ago, is now music i really liked to listen to.

I've been listening to some alva noto music some days ago. and, well,... I wouldn't really call it "music". I'd rather call it audiovisual art, and it's not really my cup of tea. Perhaps it will be in ten years.. who knows?

And, yeah... Alva Noto is performing "arts"... So he is an "artist"... and basically every musician is an artist. So I'm kinda locked in a loop.

And that's exactly the point at which I have forgotten everything I actually wanted to say, because i have a big problem with not being able to structure my thoughts.. ::)

good night,

matthias

*looked it up in a dictionary. I've got no idea whether it matches the German "Weichei".

//edit:

...sorry for hijacking, btw.  ;D

[cimo]

hey i don t consider that hijacking, the topic is open feel free to say what you think.

I think what Ilmenator wanted to say is: "Why do they have to play music that loud?"

then there was a double misunderstanding: by Ilmenator cause he supposed that i advised people to bring earplugs cause i knew that the volume was going to be very loud: i don t have a clue of which kind of swampy dirtyholes my pal is going to play in, i don t know anything about that.I only wanted to point out that in this solo project he plays ambient-noise which can be "disturbing" for some, hence the earplugs: i didn t mean you have to bring earplugs for real ffs just "warning: weird music there" etc.

Then I ve misunderstood Ilmenator for the same reason thinking that he didn t understand how people could like weird noisy music. weeeee  ;D

Noise music can be loud or not, but i think that we all agree  here.

Yep Alva Noto moved to some more abstract thing lately, too bad, i loved the Prototypes period and the Sakamoto/Opiate collaborations.

It's not about standing pain here. It's not like jumping naked into a half-frozen lake.

It's about getting deaf.

Once you've lost your sense of hearing, it's lost. For ever.

true: still as in life itself, you need from time to time a "strong" experience that is going to shake the crap out of you, that s part of the learning process.Again as i stated before "loudness" in this case can t really be measured in dBs, it s a far more complicated equation involving physic and why not meta-physics phenomenons (watch "Moog" the documentary, the last 10 minutes, thanks BF).

But yes: take good care of it, i am not inviting anybody to get deaf, for sure.

There is a nice song, a very nice indeed by Low called "When i go deaf" it s a very good one, check it out folks.

Simone

[ilmenator]

I was actually assuming that the concert was announced by cimo as being very loud, hence one should bring the earplugs. My bad! I was not referring to the musical content in any way, sorry if that was not so clear!

And I can only confirm cimo's statement about radio music. There are a few exceptions, but most commercial (whatever that excludes nowadays) radio stations play something I can't stand for two reasons: the music AND the sound. Ever thought about the fact that engineers have tried to expand the dynamic range that can be recorded / transmitted ever since, to exploit the capabilities of the human hearing? Those stations use like 3-4 dB of dynamic range, and I can't stand those Optimod's and how they call them anymore.

And unfortunately, the tendency at live events is a bit similar. The louder you play, the less perception of dynamic range is possible (sic!). Which leads to a kind of "binary" state: it either hurts or there is silence. So what's the use in going there? Apart from the fact that SLP pointed out - once you damaged your hearing, it's not going to come back, no matter how hard you try...

Best regards, ilmenator

[Goblinz]

I kind of screwed up my hearing in my right ear. I go to a lot of indoor raves and was stood near the speaker at one, which was just about tollerable and my friend started trying to make herself heard over the sound system my shouting down my ear. I ended up with what sounded like a kettle whistling from my ear which I now get if I stand too close a to a loud soundsystem without earplugs.

It's important to look after your ears if your going to loud raves/gigs. I'm starting to get really pissed off with places that play it too loud (a lot of friends say it's because i'm getting old) but I just dont see the point of having a stack of loud speakers in one place when you could spread them out to get a more even sound throughout the hall, or maybe even spend the money on a better quality speaker system with less output.

Now and again I've been to a club wchich is reputed as being the loudest indoor dub soundsytsem in Europe, although i'm not sure if it still holds that title. If you're anywhere in the main hall you can't roll a ciggerette as the bass bounces all the tobacco, tip etc all over the place. sparking up a lighter is impossible too because of the "wind" from the speakers. Yes there's stil people dancing away qquite happily infront of the speakers... Pointless.

            G

[stryd_one]

I go to a lot of indoor raves....my friend started trying to make herself heard over the sound system my shouting down my ear.

HOT TIP (Pay attention now people):

The best way to allow yourself to hear someone who is trying to talk to you over load music, is to BLOCK your ear. Yes, I know, it doesn't sound sensible at first. Try it. Stick one finger over that little bit of cartilege and push it into your ear canal and make a seal. All the music is all muddy and drowned out. Get a friend to speak normally next to your ear. Clear as a bell ;)

what is music and what is to be considered noise? is there an absolute reference value where we can set our judgment?

Yes: Rhythm and melody. (and that's not 'rhythm/melody as perceived by the listener', so people calling Hendrix 'noise' were just lacking education)

Oh and people; If it's even vaguely legal, it's not a rave. It's a dance party, or a discotheque, or something. Raves are illegal by nature, and as such are pretty much nonexistent these days. Blame England, and conservative anti-drug politicians.

[Goblinz]

Oh and people; If it's even vaguely legal, it's not a rave. It's a dance party, or a discotheque, or something. Raves are illegal by nature, and as such are pretty much nonexistent these days. Blame England, and conservative anti-drug politicians.

There's still plenty going on. I live near a city that has lots of old dis-used warehouses, then there's the squat-party scene. Free parties seem to have taken over from the outdoor rave scene, but there's still some illegal outdoor parties going on. We organised one a couple of months ago but it all went very wrong...  :-\

[cimo]

hi

I just dont see the point of having a stack of loud speakers in one place when you could spread them out to get a more even sound throughout the hall, or maybe even spend the money on a better quality speaker system with less output.

yep another good point to remember is how bad quality system can fuck you up without necessary being extremely loud

[Goblinz]

hiyep another good point to remember is how bad quality system can fuck you up without necessary being extremely loud

I'd much rather have Crystal clear sound over loudness any day. I recently went to Antaris and Fullmoon in Berlin. You could quite happily stand infront of the speakers and have a conversation with someone and the sound quality was amazing. They had between 6 and 8 stacks of speakers. Last year at VUUV they had an even better speaker system on a large circular frame going round the dance floor which was really nice to listen to, especially when you stand in the sweet spot right in the middle.

Places I go to in the UK tend to have two speaker stacks, on each side of the stage sounds loud but not clear.

[ilmenator]

Last year at VUUV they had an even better speaker system on a large circular frame going round the dance floor which was really nice to listen to...

That setup was designed by Anselm Goertz, someone who really knows how to do PA correctly.

[cimo]

.. so bumping this:

today i got a link to an interview with the guy himself talking about noise and Canadian literature and a little performance

[SLP]

I assume he's smoking common tobacco, right?  ;D

[cimo]

I assume he's smoking common tobacco, right?  ;D

common tobacco is ilegal in Berlin

[stryd_one]

LOL

OMG that was boring. He talks about ignoring what makes up music and how sound is everywhere... Then he makes some sounds that fit all of the usual criteria to be called music (it has rhythm and melody) but just played the first 5 second intro for 8 minutes. Yawn! Too much theoreticising and posing and not enough sound, if you ask me. There's nothing avant-garde about stripping back the same music everyone else makes until only one interesting instrument remains. It sounds like elevator music from the year 2100.... or maybe a CD from one of those hippie meditation stores that sells incense and crystals.

[cimo]

yeah, i think he would agree with you, i hope i can link to something more interesting, that s the only thing i ve found so far.

[TheAncientOne]

Thanks for the hearing tip - years of doing PA in the 70's - 80's and I never found that one. Best unobtrusive hearing protection for gigs were some ex RAF ones I blagged. Had a pressure membrane in them that allowed quiet sounds through but kept jet noise down. Sadly they were disposables and are long gone, and I never found the makers

Oh and people; If it's even vaguely legal, it's not a rave. It's a dance party, or a discotheque, or something. Raves are illegal by nature, and as such are pretty much nonexistent these days. Blame England, and conservative anti-drug politicians.

There is also 'quasi legal: or 'private', eg:

http://www.gashcollective.com/GASHfest/home.htm

They're my local outlaw crew.

[Goblinz]

I'm sure I've seen fliers/invites for their do's, don't they do squat parties round the bradford area?

[TheAncientOne]

I know they've done that in Salford and around Manchester, and done clubs/band promo in my area, (possibly to raise funds for other events), so it's quite possible that they have.

Been some really good Goth/Darkwave parties in the Bradford area, and the "One in Twelve" is right behind the photo studio I was  building when my avatar pic was taken. Will be back there soon, perhaps we could meet up then. 

[Goblinz]

Yes, let me know when you're in the area. Always up for a goth night, (depending on trains).