pingosimon Posted June 11, 2009 Report Share Posted June 11, 2009 Hello! I'm about to start making my first MIDIbox SID, which, frighteningly, is also my first big electronics/programming project of any sort. I'm sure I'll be posting here more as I try to construct the CORE, the SID module, and maybe some additions.I have two 6582A chips from Wilba, a 6581R4AR from a grey C64, and a 6581 CBM from a rounder C64.I may do some sequencing, but I'm starting this project with the intention of using the synth with a MIDI keyboard to play it live. Is two chips enough for a decent live synth setup? Is 4 overkill? Should I make two modules and use one for leads and one for bass? Is there a certain way I should or should not mix and match these four chips? I know the 6582 and 6581 use different voltages, but I don't know enough about the sound differences to know if it'd be worth it to work around the voltage issue in order to mix chips in a module.Thanks! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nILS Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 Welcome aboard pingosimon! :DIs two chips enough for a decent live synth setup? Is 4 overkill? Should I make two modules and use one for leads and one for bass? Is there a certain way I should or should not mix and match these four chips? I know the 6582 and 6581 use different voltages, but I don't know enough about the sound differences to know if it'd be worth it to work around the voltage issue in order to mix chips in a module.There's not really a right/wrong answer to that one ;) Depending on what style of music you play live 2 SIDs can be definitely enough - for instance if you play solo leads and only need a monophonic stereo synth OR are cool with 2 voices in a mono setup. Altough it's questionable if you ever need stereo at a live gig. The "phatness" factor of two SIDs is pretty high ;)The best thing to do, would be to try it out. Start with a simple one core + one SID module setup, get that up and running and play around a little bit. Add a second SID module and play around with the stereo setup (in a stereo setup you'd want matched SIDs in your case probably the two 6582As). After you've got that up and running - there's more to try, which you'll probably just have to do. It's lotsa fun after all! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pingosimon Posted June 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 Cool, thanks! Yeah I guess that question is kinda hard to answer, but thanks for verifying my hunch that I should use the matched pair for a stereo setup.I'll start with the core and a single SID module and go from there....time to start reading this whole site... Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nILS Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 If you really get stuck, just ask again! I hear there's people around here who kinda know this stuff ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pingosimon Posted June 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 Alright! Thanks for the tip in the other thread...I think I'll definitely start with the simpler project.Which one chip would you use to start out with? Are they very easily interchangeable once I build the SID module? I haven't actually tested one of the 6581, since the C64 I got it out of was broken. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nILS Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 Which one chip would you use to start out with? Are they very easily interchangeable once I build the SID module?I'd start with one of the 6582As as they are pretty much guaranteed to work, which may be a huge benefit in potential troubleshooting. Also it seems rather likely that you'll build a stereo setup at some point, so that's another reason to start with the 6582A which will go nicely along with it's sibling in a stereo setup :-)You cannot simply replace the 6582A with a 6581. The 6582A is basically an 8580 and needs a) a different voltage to run and b) different filter caps. Obviously it's not a huge problem to replace them though ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fussylizard Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 You should seriously consider using Wilba's design for the MB-6582 (http://www.midibox.org/dokuwiki/wilba_mb_6582). You don't need to build the control surface if you don't want it, and if you use power supply option B you can use different types of SIDs. The board+kit from SmashTV includes all the stuff you'll need to do this so it is pretty straightforward. Wilba's docs are also great, so if you're careful you shouldn't have too much trouble.I initially was going to build a basic stereo SID synth with discrete modules, but by the time I added up the costs (including all the interconnecting wires, power supply stuff, etc.) it wasn't going to be much more to just do the MB-6582. You also don't have to worry about all the interconnects since the modules are all attached together on the MB-6582 base board, so in that regard it is easier. And the power options are already there for your needs. So don't let the bigger board scare you off. It just *looks* harder, but it is much easier than the discrete solution IMHO.And you can always build the control surface later if you decide you want it (it's fantastic), or a more minimal one if that's all you need, or just program the entire thing via MIDI and the MIDIBox SID editor.And as long as you're willing to learn, the community here is great and can help you sort out any issues. If you've never soldered, there are some good videos on http://www.curiousinventor.com/guides/How_To_Solder.Keep us posted! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 Alright! Thanks for the tip in the other thread...I think I'll definitely start with the simpler project.Which one chip would you use to start out with? Are they very easily interchangeable once I build the SID module? I haven't actually tested one of the 6581, since the C64 I got it out of was broken.Im going to be naughty with my sid module,by using a 3 pin cut IC socket to hold the voltage regulator (with legs shortened of course), so i can simply push it into the socket, instead of soldering it, thus making it removable.Ill be doing the same for the Filter Caps also, so ill easily be able to install a different Sid version in the future.Its not advisable however, someone (dr. bunsen i think?) in the chat said it might cause instability with the regulator but im going to be a stubborn prick anyway and go for it! :P Its great how the mb-6852 allows you to use any version, by changing jumpers i think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pingosimon Posted June 12, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 ooh thanks for the soldering video, I learned a couple new things!hmm, now I'm confused. Maybe more people will jump in with basic module vs mb6582.I'll do some more reading this weekend before ordering anything. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Smithy Posted June 12, 2009 Report Share Posted June 12, 2009 ooh thanks for the soldering video, I learned a couple new things!hmm, now I'm confused. Maybe more people will jump in with basic module vs mb6582.I'll do some more reading this weekend before ordering anything.The best thing to do first, is do a one sid, one core, version with a minimal control surface. Wilba advises you to do one of these before doing a mb6852 in the dokuwiki, so youll gain experience,and have less of a chance of f***ing up the mb6852. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
fussylizard Posted June 13, 2009 Report Share Posted June 13, 2009 @Smithy - you just change jumpers near each SID to select 12V or 9V. I put in pin strips for the filter caps so I can change those as needed. I'm not sure how each SID type's filters would sound with the "wrong" filter cap values (there's a thread going on this I believe) but it won't cause any problems if you directly solder in filter caps and can't switch them.I do think I recall Wilba writing about doing a more simple module first to gain experience. Personally, though, I was going crazy just trying to map out all the interconnects, power supply, etc. for a stereo setup so I thought the MB-6582 was way easier. The MB-6582 requires a lot of soldering, but by the time you finish soldering all the IC sockets you'll have a lot of experience. :-) I think the big thing is to read all the available info, be careful, and take your time. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pingosimon Posted June 14, 2009 Author Report Share Posted June 14, 2009 Thanks guys! I'll go with the single core and single SID for now. It makes sense to start simple, and I do need some experience with every aspect of this project. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
glitched Posted June 17, 2009 Report Share Posted June 17, 2009 Let me just recommend that you purchase two SID boards (and parts) now. Trust me, it will save you some time later when you find you're addicted to the SID sound (and your new-found love of electronics). It's no fun looking at those extra chip(s) and wondering what they sound like! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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