Effect pedal, MIDI on a Jack.[SOLVED]

[spinal]

On 05/05/2020 at 11:26 AM, Antichambre said:

Hello, this diagram is a regular MIDI input stage, it's not a passive circuit and must be powered, if you connect the 5V to the ring you will get issue when the pedal send data. The ring is the TX point which has idle state at 5V but 0V on data transmit and use it as a power source is also not a good idea, it's a CMOS/TTL signal.

The diagram was shared from Strymon support engineer. I understood it should match their own cable:  https://store.strymon.net/midi-exp-cable/ .

 

If you are right and and the ring from Strymon jack midi port is not a 5v power supply, it means that power should come from din phantom power from the midi controler or another pedal. I understand it means midi din port with 7 pins.

However Strymon pedals with midi din port are 5 pins only. I can no believe that their own cable would not work between their own pedals.

That's why I don't think that you are true and I think that Strymon use a non standard midi over jack pin out with 5v power coming from the slave pedal on the TRS ring and no TX capability.

 

I hope it makes sens!

 

Edited May 6, 2020 by spinal

[spinal]

I found 2 interesting links:

-  https://www.strymon.net/faq/how-do-strymon-pedals-receive-midi-messages-sent-via-14-trs-midi-cable/ where Strymon describe just what you said. Which means  Strymon pedals are bi-directionnal with midi jack. However in the Riverside and Iridium manual, I see that midi out is configurable: ON (pedal can send internal datas) / THROUGH / OFF (which is the default).

-  https://www.strymon.net/midi-control-sunset-riverside/ , Hugo (Strymon’s customer support manager) wrote in the comments " As for MIDI IN and OUT, this is done via the EXP jack with the pedal receiving (MIDI IN) MIDI messages at the TIP and sending MIDI back out (MIDI OUT) at the RING of the TRS connection. As the Strymon MIDI EXP cable does NOT support bi-directional communication, you would need to get a device that accommodates for MIDI IN and OUT using a single TRS cable such as the Empress Effects Midibox2. "

->  Strymon MIDI EXP cable does NOT support bi-directional communication

 

My conlusion is that if The Strymon pedal is set for midi out configured as ON or TROUGH it is just like you said (TRS ring is the TX). If it is configured as OFF it is just like I said (TRS ring is the 5V power supply).

Edited May 6, 2020 by spinal

[Antichambre]

34 minutes ago, spinal said:

If it is configured as OFF it is just like I said (TRS ring is the 5V power supply).

If it's configured as OFF the signal just stays in idle state, it does not switch as a power rail, it stays a logic signal. I suppose this was made strong, depends on what is inside, logic buffer, transistor, cpu pin directly, depends on the current it can support;

What I wanted to do here, is avoid any interface box and get IN and OUT, and it works fine with a Merris.
With your solution you just recreate this interface box(regular optocoupled midi input) and power it with a logic line from the pedal and without Output.

Here the original and well known diagram of a regular MIDI IN and Thru.

Your diagram is just a part of it ;)

[Moulin]

Dear community

Midi noob here that has an issue sending PC messages from my Musicomlab controller to a Chase Bliss Tonal Recall, through a MIDI-to-TRS cable.

All troubleshooting with help of Chase Bliss did not help, the pedal won't receive any message.

Midi cable works, although DIY it is correctly wired and tested.

Controller MIDI send works through ISO cables with other pedals.

Is there REALLY a need for a Midi box? What is in a Midi box that is not in a cable and why would it be relevant for the Musicomlab EFX MK-V

Any help is much appreciated! (I don't want to spend another 100$ for a totally overprized Midibox if a 5$ cable can do the job)

[Antichambre]

This thread talks about how to replace The Empress MIDIbox by a simple cabling.
This product is from the Empress brand, and has just the same name as our forum.

But! According to the chase bliss documentation, Tip and Ring mus be flipped to use it with the Empress interface.
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5dce1364138bbd66dabfb03c/t/5dd368e2b036cc38a02202ac/1574136034997/Tonal+Recall_MIDI+Manual_Pedal_Chase+Bliss+Audio.pdf
I can't try this with my "simple cabling" solution, I've got no chase bliss product. It's maybe your issue. Also trying it is at your own risk ;)

Best regards
Bruno

[Moulin]

19 minutes ago, Antichambre said:

This thread talks about how to replace The Empress MIDIbox by a simple cabling.
This product is from the Empress brand, and has just the same name as our forum.

But! According to the chase bliss documentation, Tip and Ring mus be flipped to use it with the Empress interface.
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5dce1364138bbd66dabfb03c/t/5dd368e2b036cc38a02202ac/1574136034997/Tonal+Recall_MIDI+Manual_Pedal_Chase+Bliss+Audio.pdf
I can't try this with my "simple cabling" solution, I've got no chase bliss product. It's maybe your issue. Also trying it is at your own risk ;)

Best regards
Bruno

Thanks for answering!

I am asking basically, referring to all sorts of "Midi Boxes" and I do talk about a simple cable replacement.

I have the basic information about the Chase Bliss specs and soldered a cable that IS SUPPOSED to work, but it doesn't - and before I buy a box that costs 20 times of a cable I need to know what's the deal with it :-)

[Antichambre]

Could you show us what you did, cabling pinout and the basic information you got in hand to do it?

[Moulin]

2 minutes ago, Antichambre said:

Could you show us what you did, cabling pinout and the basic information you got in hand to do it?

With basic information I mean that I am aware of all Chase Bliss quirks and requirements. Also I have been in contact with them and did guided troubleshooting.

My controller is a MusicomLab EFX MK-V that works perfectly well for sending Midi PC and CC messages to other pedals such as a Line 6 M5 or Boss 500-series through ISO

I have connected the CBA Tonal Recall with a self made MIDI-TRS cable to the MIDI out of my EFX MK-V (specs attached). Cable is tested with a multimeter. Midi Channel supposed to be correct.

Doesn't work

[Antichambre]

Did you try to receive something from another machine(computer) to the chase bliss with this cable?
Maybe pin 2 of your controller is not connected to the ground internally.  Pin 2 is a shield and it's normally not used on the receiving side(MIDI In), some manufacturer don't follow the rules and don't connect it.
Try with another MIDI Out device, if it works then open your MusicomLab controller and add a piece of wire from a ground position to the pin 2.

Edited March 29, 2021 by Antichambre

[Moulin]

54 minutes ago, Antichambre said:

Did you try to receive something from another machine(computer) to the chase bliss with this cable?
Maybe pin 2 of your controller is not connected to the ground internally.  Pin 2 is a shield and it's normally not used on the receiving side(MIDI In), some manufacturer don't follow the rules and don't connect it.
Try with another MIDI Out device, if it works then open your MusicomLab controller and add a piece of wire from a ground position to the pin 2.

Great idea. I will try that.

Just to be on the same page: given that would be the case, could it make sense to rewire the Midi plug instead of messing with the controller? Since the ISO cables work well, and they are likely grounded on pin 2. Or do ISO cables just don't need a ground?

[Antichambre]

What is ISO cable? Regular MIDI one?
 

2 hours ago, Moulin said:

could it make sense to rewire the Midi plug instead of messing with the controller?

Which plug?

[Moulin]

3 hours ago, Antichambre said:

What is ISO cable? Regular MIDI one?
 

Which plug?

jep, the regular 5 pin Midi one, however they are called :-)

Forget the other question, I did not understand the pin 2 shield thing first. I was just confused since I assume the normal Midi cables also have the ground on pin 2 so why would ground not be used? But meanwhile I got it.

Edited March 29, 2021 by Moulin

[Antichambre]

Here is a normal MIDI interface schematic.

As you can see ground is only on pin 2 of the MIDI outputs.

I think your problem is that the chase bliss has no optocoupler input and doesn't get the signal between the regular pin 4 and 5(between signal and 5V) but between 4 and 2(signal and ground).
if no ground is provided on pin 2 of your controller then the pin4(signal) has no reference.

Before open the controller check the continuity between midi out pin 2 and another ground, e.g. sleeve of the XPDL jack

If there's nothing then open the enclosure and add it...

[Moulin]

I checked the continuity of pin 2 on the Musicomlab and the sleeve of the plugged XPDL TRS. I get some ohms on the display. Looks like pin 2 is grounded???

Also I tried sending PC from the DAW to the CBA through my Audio interface. Doesn't work. However it works with another pedal.

WTF!!!

Edited March 29, 2021 by Moulin

[Antichambre]

So I don't know.
Try to change the MIDI channel according to its MIDI manual.

[Moulin]

8 hours ago, Antichambre said:

So I don't know.
Try to change the MIDI channel according to its MIDI manual.

I think it is now evident that the problem is the missing opto-coupler.

[tense]

Hey there,

I have a Meris Ottobit jr. I´d like to control.

First I used an Elektron Cycles which has 3.5mm Midi I/O. Using a TRS cable TX works (CC & PC).

For being able to TX/RX, I built the cable (as described by Bruno, with Pin 4 bridged).

Plugging that to my RME Fireface UC I get RX (from Pedal) but cannot TX!

Using a Behringer BFCF000 I can TX but get no RX!!

So I got myself an iConnectivity mioXL today - neither RX nor TX!!!

Taking the Elektron again for testing both RX/TX work with the built cable (but can´t use this as an interface).

Any ideas on that?  ...or is it just chance?

Thanks,

best

Tim

[Antichambre]

15 hours ago, tense said:

Any ideas on that?  ...or is it just chance?

On my side it works with a MOTU fastlane or both MTPAV(old and USB model)
I think there's no rule, here I tried to find a workaround to avoid commercial boxes, I never said it will work without exception ;)
Still better to buy or build one of this active boxes, with optocoupler inside.

BR
Bruno

[tense]

Ah, no complains from here!

Thanks for caring.

Seems like there exist a bunch of standard midi implementations.

Just ordered the Conduit - hope that works.

Best,

Tim

[Antichambre]

On 6/10/2022 at 10:36 PM, tense said:

Ah, no complains from here!

Thanks for caring.

Seems like there exist a bunch of standard midi implementations.

Just ordered the Conduit - hope that works.

Best,

Tim

Something you can do is using the shield as ground, some recent machines doesn't provide GND on Midi out pin 2, there's a chance shield is connected, this cable adaptation needs the GND to work properly.
There's some explanation about it above in the thread.