TK. Posted January 6, 2004 Report Share Posted January 6, 2004 After the last beta-testing days with my MIOS based MIDIbox SEQI noticed that so much advances functions have been added, thatthe sequences can only be edited ergonomically with a dedicated control surface - so, here my first try - feel free to add your comments:From the left to the right:Track buttons: I still won't use more than 4 tracks, since this an analogue style sequencer + arpeggiator and no groovebox. Therefore the 4 tracks can be selected directly with these buttonsLayer buttons: to select the "Note number/CC Number","Veclocity/CC Value" and "Gatelength" Layer. For TB303 fans: accent can be realized by varying the velocity, slide by varying the gatelength or by assigning a portamentocontroller to another trackMute button: to mute tracks and stepsView button: to select different views on the displaysChngAll button: when pressed, one rotary encoder changesthe values for all rotary encoders at the same timeReset button: resets the Layer valuesMode Edit button: the multifunction buttons are used toplay a note/controllerMode Pattern button: the multifunction buttons are usedto select a pattern on-the-fly (from A-1 to h-8: 128 patterns)Mode Chain button: to select a chain of patterns (upto 16)Menu button: shortcut to jump into a menu directly2 * 2x40 LCD: since a 2x16 display is really too small,I want to see all notes/values which are playedrotary encoders: for a simple analogue style sequencerpots are ok, but the powerfull track/layer function really demands for endless knobs, otherwise the finetuning of apattern doesn't make fun!Multifunction buttons: see aboveData wheel: this rotary encoder replaces the Menu Left/Right buttons, provides faster data entrySelect button: was "Snapshot" button in MB64Menu button: was "Exit" button in MB64F1-F4 buttons: free assignable buttons, can triggerMIDI events or any functions directly (e.g. "Mute all","MIDI Clock Master/Slave", "Fwd", "Rwd")Start/Stop button: function should be clearCase: I will try to mount the panel on a common- flat! - computer keyboard. The case will only containthe control elements and DIN/DOUT modules, the othermodules (CORE, AOUT, Power supply) will be put into aseperate box. Advantage: in this way the surface fitsnice in front of my MIDIbox SID :)The core unit and the control surface will be connectedvia a 6-wire cable.Ok, thats all for today. ;-)Best Regards, Thorsten.P.S.: the 64-pot sequencer will still be provided by the MBSEQ application, also the 2x16 display - for people who don't plan to use all features so extensive like me.P.P.S.: the sequencer will also run without controlsurface - with a singe core module. In this configurationit can be configured from the Java frontend (JSynth). Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
d2k Posted January 6, 2004 Report Share Posted January 6, 2004 my oh my oh my...:D Yes yes TK!There's the resta januray sorted :> Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pay_c Posted January 7, 2004 Report Share Posted January 7, 2004 Why buy stuff if you can make it even better with less money??Can´t believe what I´m seeing here every now and then. Don´t wanna know where this whole page will be in five years!We´ll need someone for writing instruction manuals for those babies!!!TK: First gotta try to get everything into my brain. Perhaps then I can come up with some ideas. You´re definitely to fast... ;D :o :o :o Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pay_c Posted January 7, 2004 Report Share Posted January 7, 2004 OK, got the point ( I hope ... ...).Questions & Suggestions:- Will there be octave up/down buttons (the free assignable ones e.g.)? We talked about that in our emails. Would be cool I think (going the whole range of about 5 octaves up and down with that enc isn´t so much fun)- The Reset button should react after two seconds (like the old snapshot did). This way you wont delete the track accidentaly (and afterwards bite your own ass)... *if* you had´nt already thought of that. ;)Would be cool, this way, this button is freed up for another function if its just pressed- Idea: What´s with some "Morphing Fun" in this box, too? E.g. just morphing the velocities and CC Values? (Morphing Notes & CC# doesn´t make to much sense, I think) I think that would be ... just ... ... cool again. ;DGreets! ;D*lookingforwardforthisbaby* *cantwaituntilmytestsareoveragain* Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Hastings Posted January 7, 2004 Report Share Posted January 7, 2004 Whoa! Another beauty TK! :DWill this run with 2 cores, one for the app and one for the control surface (driving the lcds and din/dout)? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
uclaros Posted January 7, 2004 Report Share Posted January 7, 2004 No, it's just a dedicated controll surface for the MB64SEQv2.It's just a suggested layout! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK. Posted January 8, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2004 Dan: I just have ordered the parts @ Reichelt. Maybe the first release will be ready in 2 weeks, once I finished the breadboards :) Btw.: for this project I will use detented rotary encoders (the China ones which were organized by Ian Hurlock some time ago), since highest precission is required for tweaking the notes. They have an integrated push button, maybe I will use it for an additional functionPay.c: thanks for this very good input!transpose buttons: the beta version I sent you one week ago already features a transpose function for each track. When enabled, 32 notes are strechted over the whole pot range and can be transposed octave-wise. This function will also be available in this variant (check the transpose button in the menu section). Ok, it should be a piece of cake to provide also a Transpose +/- button for the free assignable F-section (note: in fact every DIN input can be used as free assignable function button, so its not limmited to F1-F4)Reset: yes, important!Morph: great idea! Morphing between two patterns can be realized very easily, the morph value could be controlled either by the data wheel, or by an external modulation wheel, or by the velocity value of the played note (-> transpose and arpeggiator mode).For note values it could be usefull to switch between the note from Pattern A to Pattern B when a certain morphing level is reached. Morphing should be switchable (enable/disable) for all 12 layers seperatelyCaptain Hastings: only a single core module will be required. The design will be extentable from:tiny: core module w/o any control function - especially nice as standalone sequencer or arpeggiator with predefined patterns, editable via a Java GUI (Win/Mac/Linux)minimal: core module, 1 2x16 LCD, 6 buttons and one rotary encoder (optional: two additional Inc/Dec buttons) connected via Port J5 (requires no DIN module)vintage: 64 pots, min. 32 buttons and 16 LEDs: the classic MB64 sequencerdeluxe:see aboveextravagant: like above, but with 48 rotary encoders to control all 3layers at the same time. However, with endless knobs such effort isn't really required, the layer switches are ergonomical enoughBest Regards, Thorsten. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Duggle Posted January 8, 2004 Report Share Posted January 8, 2004 The different H/W formats is a great thing!I like the Tiny option because it will allow me to trial the application and see if I like the workflow as a way of making music before I go ballistic and build a dedicated one.Thorsten, will it be possible to edit in real time using the Tiny plus Java applet? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain_Hastings Posted January 8, 2004 Report Share Posted January 8, 2004 only a single core module will be required. Nice! :)The reason i asked about the number of core modules was that the control surface is only connected with a 6-wire cable and i wondered how all the data for the lcds, din and dout would be transferred? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK. Posted January 8, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2004 Duggle: yes, patterns can be edited in realtime via SysEx or CC (there are 4 dedicated MIDI channels for the layers and config data) - nice for testing :)Captain Hastings: you are right, this is something I forgot, the LCD requires some additional lines, so two cables (15 pin connector + power) are required :-/Btw.: new functionGroove button: to shift the 16 steps globally in positive or negative direction by +7/-8 MIDI clocksMorph and Groove will replace the MIDI and SysEx shortcut button (these menus are reachable with the menu button at the right side anyhow)Best Regards, Thorsten. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nomical Posted January 8, 2004 Report Share Posted January 8, 2004 Two questions:1. Will there be enough space (or even be an option at all) to change the code (by myself, i know you don't need it TK) to a 16 track sequencer? 4 tracks is by far not enough for me.2. How about pattern/song loading? Is it possible to load/change patterns/songs in sync, in other words without having to stop the sequencer?This project is looking very good TK!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
pay_c Posted January 8, 2004 Report Share Posted January 8, 2004 Btw.: new functionGroove button: to shift the 16 steps globally in positive or negative direction by +7/-8 MIDI clocksMorph and Groove will replace the MIDI and SysEx shortcut button (these menus are reachable with the menu button at the right side anyhow)Oooooh my oh my oh my...if it´s even getting better still now, I´ll loose my mind! That will be some encoder flood ordering from our side again!!For that groove again: I already thought about something like that earlier. My idea was a random function added to the MIDI Clock (or subtracted). Since the PIC doesn´t support random values (naturally), you would have to produce it (which isn´t any problem - just take the noise of a transistor e.g., amplify it and bring it in on an AIN of the core). Just an idea...Random grooving! I could imagine that would bring alot of natural feeling into some sequencer... what do you think? Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
arumblack Posted January 8, 2004 Report Share Posted January 8, 2004 Momical: I too would like more tracks...but perhaps the core can't handle them? if so perhaps a chain system like on the sid could be used, 4 cores would be 16 tracks, but using one CS.i also wonder would it be possible to add more layers per track.note number , gate length, velocity use up three and i could use those plus a couple cc's? i suppose i could use another track on the same midi channel, but that uses up tracks.so i guees what i really wonder is how much breathing room is left in the pic for modification/enhancement? Not that i even posses the skill to do it at this point, but theese are things i think about still. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moebius Posted January 8, 2004 Report Share Posted January 8, 2004 Looks great! Lot's of new functionality ;)You probably know these people with Roland fixation: Well, I'm one of those ;) So two suggestions:Groove button: I like the idea, but how about Roland TR-909, 7x7 style Shuffle levels?! It sure does make sequences Damn Funky! Is it difficult to implement some kind of selectable groove templates for that?! (And has anyone got a suitable TR, so timings for those shuffles could be extacted?!)Alternative sequencing control method, kind of like MC202:ASCII illustration:Non code:      12 note "keyboard" [-] [+] octave transpose        [][]  [][][]   [S] slide (tie)       [][][][][][][]  [<][>] [X] delete                step So, nothing fancy, just plain old step entry.. but that's how I like to work: very fast way of "scratchpad" sequencing and collecting ideas. Also updating (just pressing keyboard button) live while sequencer is playing could update that step. And this mini keyboard could also be used to transpose sequences live or for driving arpeggiator ;)Well, I might just be dreaming,Bye, Moebius/edit fixing ascii Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK. Posted January 8, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2004 Pay.c: again - a nice idea! :)When you look into the source code you will notice that I'vealready implemented a pseudo random generator whichis used in "Random Direction" mode. The advantage of thisgenerator (in distance to a "true random" gen) is, thatit works deterministic - it can be reset, e.g. via MIDI Start,and this makes random sequences reproducible.It shouldn't be a problem to use this generator also forrandom shifts - since one step takes 6 MIDI clocks(when the divider is set to 1), the groove feature makesonly sense from -5 to +5, other values could producea random value, e.g.: +6 - random from 0..2, +7: random from 0..5, -6: random from -0..-2-7: random from -0..-5-8: random from -5..+5Nomical:patterns can already be changed within less than1 mS - so in sync of course - latency was one of myhighest priorities during the implementation of the sequencer engine.Songs are nothing else than chains of patterns(with loops from 1 to 16), it starts immediately,so no issue.16 track sequencer: everything is possible ;-)BUT: only with some disadvantages, whichI don't want to consider in my implementation.With 16 tracks it wouldn't be possible to store the whole pattern in RAM. The sequencer core has to read the pattern directly from EEPROM instead. This has notiming disadvantages (remember that sending aMIDI event takes 1 mS, an EEPROM value can be read within 10 uS...), but it makes realtime editingvia MIDI impossible. Most parts of the control surfacehandler would have to be changed, so that onlythe select track is buffered in RAM. Features like Morhphing wouldn't be possible anymore, since this requires a second data set of the layer values.The whole SysEx store structure would have to bechanged to a new format, it wouldn't be possibleto store 128 patches in a single BankStick, but only32 or so... a second JSynth GUI would be required totake the changed data structure into account (note:realtime editing with JSynth wouldn't be possible anymore), and last but not least: a second documentationwould be required and somebody who answers thequestions to this different implementation. ;-)Just take this into account...And to repeat it for the guys who didn't read my other postings regarding the reason, why I onlyneed a 4 track sequencer: I'm using it as creativitytool. Once a nice sequence "works", I record it withLogic, and the MBSEQ is free for the next track.Sooner or later I've to rearrange and mixdown the sequences anyhow, and for this an editor like Logic is much more efficient (yes, in this situation I really like to use a mouse). If you really want to record, play, arrange, mix a wholesong with a standalone device, then you have to programsomething which has been done by Emagic or Steinberg15 years ago - on the Atari ST (a second-hand Atari costs you less money and less effort)Arumblack: for every CC's you have to use a seperatetrack. But see above, why more than this doesn't makesense. It is possible to chain multiple MBSEQs (syncedvia MIDI clock), but it isn't possible to control them from a single control surface (it would have to save alleditable parameters in RAM anyhow)Best Regards, Thorsten. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK. Posted January 8, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 8, 2004 Shuffle: if somebody could tell me how it is workingexactly? (With examples - .mid files prefered) ;-)Your seq editing idea: I wouldn't be much effort for meto integrate such a step recording function, it couldalso be controlable from an external keyboard, so thatonly the Step Left/Right and Slide/Accent/Delete buttonis required. Or by a simple button replacement (just some additional "special function buttons", you know: up to 128 inputs are available ;-)Best Regards, Thorsten. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moebius Posted January 9, 2004 Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 Too bad I sold TR-707 ages ago (bad sounds and no need for trigger output anymore).. Quick search on the net didn't reveal anybody willing to share their Shuffled patterns.SO: Has anybody got: TR-909, 7x7 or 626?!(Basically it's kind of a swing feel, notes between beats get shifted, by.. well, maybe we can get those midi files.)And thanks for your input on control surface.. I was afraid that it could be too far from your original analogue style sequencer idea.Thanks. Moebius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sil909 Posted January 9, 2004 Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 Reply I might have an archived thread about shuffleing ( tr707- 606-909 specific) from AH archives. I believe they are still down but I might have hard copy will look tomorrow morning and post info if i can find. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moebius Posted January 9, 2004 Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 Thorsten:Thanks to sil909 and AnalogueHeaven archives Grooves extracted! No midi file, but Here's the table, representing one beat and it's 16th note values shifted in relation to midi clock:[pre] Â Â Â Â Â Â Â 16ths: Â Â Â Â Â 1 Â Â Â 2 Â Â Â 3 Â Â Â 4 Â Â (1)none: Â Â 0 Â Â Â 0 Â Â Â 0 Â Â Â 0 Â Â (0)Shuffle1: 0 Â Â Â -1 Â Â Â 0 Â Â -1 Â Â (0)Shuffle2: 0Â Â Â -2 Â Â Â 0 Â Â -2 Â Â (0)Shuffle3: 0 Â Â Â -3 Â Â Â 0 Â Â -3 Â Â (0) Shuffle4: 0 Â Â Â -4 Â Â Â 0 Â Â -4 Â Â (0) Â [/pre]I think you can easily figure out what's going on..Bye, Moebiusoh, and link to the original posting:http://www.retrosynth.com/ah/search/lookit.cgi?-v9705.1068/edit: Yet another ASCII fix, (Opera not functioning properly with YaBB) I hope I got IT ;) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sil909 Posted January 9, 2004 Report Share Posted January 9, 2004 good catch ;D Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK. Posted January 10, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 10, 2004 Thanks a lot - it looks simple! :)Update: I got my Reichelt order today, but unfortunately they sent me only one 2x40 LCD, although I ordered and payed for 2 LCDs --- have to give them a call, from my experience with Reichelt it will take 1-2 weeks until they will manage to send me the missing part :-(Best Regards, Thorsten. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
moebius Posted January 10, 2004 Report Share Posted January 10, 2004 Damn!Reichelt isn't only one making mistakes: Of Course I got that Groove table wrong, but NOW it's fixed! So only every second 16th note gets shifted.Bye, Moebius Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sil909 Posted January 10, 2004 Report Share Posted January 10, 2004 anyone want to work withme on 16 track version ? I know there are a couple users on this board with "super-sequencer" dreams. I am among them. Lets work on this. I am looking to build a dedicated sequencer for my roland M-DC1 ( only need 8 trcks with dedicated code for M-DC1 sysex functions). and another sequencer ( 16 trks ) for my modules and sampler. Intended use is for live PA. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Marcel Posted January 11, 2004 Report Share Posted January 11, 2004 Hello all,As this is my first post here allow me to introduce myself. My name's Marcel Donné and I live in the Netherlands where I work as a network engineer. Music is my main hobby and I have tried to move away from softsequencers for a while now by trying to (unsuccessfully) track down a Zyklus MIDI Performance System.I came across this forum only last week and I have been thinking ever since if it would be possible to build a 'Zyklus-clone' using the MIDIbox SEQ, with some further development.Currently I'm in the middle of obtaining a User's Manual of the Zyklus, courtesy of Mr. Robert Leiner in Sweden, in order to get a thorough understanding of the all functions and possibilities.There's not much to be found of the Zyklus on the Internet. http://www.leinermedia.com/Studio/Zyklus2.htmlThis is about the only page that has some details about the unit.If you'd like to get an idea of what the Zyklus can do, just listen to Vangelis' Direct album. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TK. Posted January 11, 2004 Author Report Share Posted January 11, 2004 Hi Marcel, welcome to the forum! :)Well, the MIDIbox SEQ concept is very different. It's a step and pattern oriented sequencer and arpeggiator (push the button to get some jarry arp sequences) - Zyklus looks like a MIDI stream oriented sequencer, where sequences are stored like in a MIDI file: each track can play multiple MIDI events at once, and the rhythm is defined as "delay between events".If a second team designs a 16 track sequencer which plays the events directly from EEPROM, this method could be taken into account. The difficult task is to implement the editing facilities. Here the Zyklus manual could give useful informations.Best Regards, Thorsten.P.S.: I'm a big fan of your Sidologie album, especially of Knucklebusters - it's my personal Remix of the Year :-) Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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